Re: [I18nrp] Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-unicode11-05.txt> (IDNA2008 and Unicode 11.0.0) to Informational RFC

Larry Masinter <LMM@acm.org> Sun, 09 December 2018 23:45 UTC

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From: Larry Masinter <LMM@acm.org>
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To: 'John C Klensin' <john-ietf@jck.com>
Cc: "'Asmus Freytag (c)'" <asmusf@ix.netcom.com>, 'Patrik Fältström' <paf=40frobbit.se@dmarc.ietf.org>, i18nrp@ietf.org, 'Paul Hoffman' <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2018 15:45:08 -0800
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Subject: Re: [I18nrp] Last Call: <draft-faltstrom-unicode11-05.txt> (IDNA2008 and Unicode 11.0.0) to Informational RFC
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The IRI working group, which I take responsibility for starting, never had
any disagreements, it just suffered that there was not enough activity.

> Not such where you are headed.  First of all, "Unicode name" has been the
> source of a huge amount of confusion caused in part because many of those
> who use that and similar terms seem to think "Unicode" is an appropriate
> synonym for "non-ASCII".

Sure, but you knew what I meant.

> Second, the rules for email addresses are very clear in the
> SMTPUTF8 specs.  Probably wrong (and I hope to get to that as soon as we
> get the issues with draft-faltstrom-unicode11 and the Directorate
questions
> nailed down), but very clear.  There is also existing IETF guidance for
other
> sorts of name-like things in the PRECIS Identifier class and for another,
> possibly overlapping, group of identifiers in UAX#31.

All of these disjoint rules are likely to get out of sync. E.g. the  rules
for email addresses don't match the rules for mailto: URLs. 
For not very good reasons.

> Asmus has identified the work that is going on to provide at least a
> framework for narrowing choices beyond that list, especially when one can
> identify a particular target audience.

Yes, the work is fine, important, and valuable. But the applicability needs
to be extended. From the general perspective of choosing domain names to use
in email addresses and URLs, the criteria can be expressed operationally,
and simply as "don't choose names that can't be transcribed easily by your
target audience" and then point to Asmus work for a detailed analysis of
reasons why some sequences might have some difficulty.

But it is easy transcription that was the original requirement for URLs, and
based on several use cases. If you want IRIs to support those use cases,
you'll need a spec that defines the rules for the URLs what will survive
transcription.


 
> As I'm certain you remember, the IETF had a WG that was, among other
> things, supposed to update RFC 3987 but that essentially could not reach
> consensus and gave up after identifying multiple
> problems with that spec.   Perhaps we should have moved it to
> Historic or placed it in a Not Recommended category as a result of that --
> certainly the language of RFC 2026 would strongly support such an action
> when there are known technical defects and we don't have a plan for moving
> forward, but there doesn't seem to have been sufficient energy and
> consensus to take that action either.
> 
> So, other than second-guessing work that is supposedly already complete,
> what do you have in mind?  And when do you expect to get I-Ds posted?
> 
>  best,
>     john
> 
> 
> --On Sunday, December 9, 2018 13:55 -0800 Larry Masinter <LMM@acm.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > I think we're looking at the problem from different ends of the
> > telescope.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm concerned with giving guidance to the use of Unicode in other
> > naming contexts, including URLs.
> >
> > I think we should extend the advice to anyone assigning a "Unicode
> > name" e.g., email addresses social media handles.
> >
> >
> >
> > In particular, the  IRI document RFC3987 needs update to align its
> > recommendations with IDNA and the WHATWG URL "living standard"
> (which
> > mainly neglects giving any advice at all
> > the those choosing URLs.)
> >
> >
> 
> 
>