Re: [i2rs] Kathleen Moriarty's Discuss on draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

"Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com> Tue, 23 August 2016 17:22 UTC

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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
To: "'Andy Bierman'" <andy@yumaworks.com>
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Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2016 13:20:50 -0400
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Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, 'Alissa Cooper' <alissa@cooperw.in>, 'Juergen Schoenwaelder' <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, i2rs-chairs@ietf.org, 'Kathleen Moriarty' <Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, 'IESG' <iesg@ietf.org>, 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>, 'Joel Halpern' <joel.halpern@ericsson.com>, 'Lou Berger' <lberger@labn.net>, draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [i2rs] Kathleen Moriarty's Discuss on draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Andy: 

 

Thanks for your input.  I’m sorry I got your comment confused with Juergen’s comment.   I agree with your solution.  The Yang Push designating a non-secure (HTTP/RESTCONF) is not allowed to send anything that is not properly tagged.   This works for the BGP event stream and the web service  up stream. 

 

Sue 

 

From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@yumaworks.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 1:09 PM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder; Lou Berger; i2rs@ietf.org; Alissa Cooper; i2rs-chairs@ietf.org; Kathleen Moriarty; IESG; Jeffrey Haas; Joel Halpern; draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [i2rs] Kathleen Moriarty's Discuss on draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

 

 

 

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

Andy: 

 

Rather than state “data model as 'non-confidential' remains a flawed” in the abstract, can we simply discuss the specifics I listed? 

 

 

That was Juergen's comment.

 

I think the tagging proposal is OK if the standard protocol that YANG Push

designates as non-secure (HTTP?) is not allowed to send any YANG data

that is not properly tagged.

 

(If the protocol is allowed to ignore this extension, then the extension is pointless.)

 

1)      BGP information publically sent as part of route-views

Sent as an  event stream from an I2RS client 

 

2)      Web server “up” messages sent as an event 

With the text similar to:   “go-to-me.com web server is up”  where “go-to-me” is a public name. 

 

Please consider in terms of an Event stream model we are working in the push.  Remember the configuration of the stream is via secure servers, and what we are talking about is listeners to the stream.  

 

 

The actual data sent to listeners can be altered in flight.

This may be a low risk.  This is part of the decision WGs will

have to make to support non-secure transport of data in the data models.

 

 

 

Sue Hares         

 

 

Andy

 

 

From: Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@yumaworks.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 1:07 PM
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder; Susan Hares; Andy Bierman; Lou Berger; i2rs@ietf.org; Alissa Cooper; i2rs-chairs@ietf.org; Kathleen Moriarty; IESG; Jeffrey Haas; Joel Halpern; draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [i2rs] Kathleen Moriarty's Discuss on draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

 

 

 

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 3:07 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 12:55:53PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> Andy:
>
>
>
> The easy of reviewing per leaf – is why I suggested the per leaf.
>
> I also agree it is important to mention this non-secure/secure requirement to the PUSH work team we are both on.
>
>
>
> Should I change:
>
> Old: /
>
>    A non-secure transport can be used for publishing telemetry data or
>
>    other operational state that was specifically indicated to non-
>
>    confidential in the data model in the Yang syntax. /
>
> New:
>
> /   A non-secure transport can be used for publishing telemetry data or
>
>    other operational state that was specifically indicated to non-
>
>    confidential in the data model. /
>

Tagging something in the data model as 'non-confidential' remains a
flawed idea. What can be considered 'non-confidential' depends on the
deployment scenario. It is even worse to standardize some piece of
information as 'non-confidential'. How can the IETF claim that
something is always 'non-confidential'? (And note, a non-secure
transport is not just about confidentiality, it also implies that
boxes on the path can arbitrarily change the information.)

 

This additional note is quite interesting.

It is 1 thing to decide if the data is public info or not.

(Assume security guidelines could be provided that clearly define that.)

 

It is quite another to say "it's OK if the monitoring data gets modified in flight".

I can't imagine any use-cases for that.

 

 

In case this is not clear: What we have done for ~30 years is to have
the decision which information goes into an insecure transport be
taken by an access control model. This makes the decision runtime
configurable and thus things can be deployment specific. This has
worked for 30 years and I have no problem with this. What I am
struggling with is the idea to standardize parts of YANG data models
as 'non-confidential'.

/js

 

 

Andy

 

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>