Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for ICG proposal review
"Richard Hill" <rhill@hill-a.ch> Sun, 23 August 2015 15:52 UTC
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From: Richard Hill <rhill@hill-a.ch>
To: 'John C Klensin' <john-ietf@jck.com>, 'Eliot Lear' <lear@cisco.com>, "'Leslie Daigle (ThinkingCat)'" <ldaigle@thinkingcat.com>
References: <95236452-2600-473E-B326-8AB8242484B4@thinkingcat.com> <018901d0dc22$4efb3870$ecf1a950$@ch> <BAB634F7-2429-4C09-AAAF-96D47C78EB51@thinkingcat.com> <01a801d0dc24$531bab40$f95301c0$@ch> <55D74BF9.2090901@cisco.com> <020001d0dc2c$b5514ba0$1ff3e2e0$@ch> <D3394ED976549059B1694F5B@JcK-HP8200.jck.com>
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 17:51:58 +0200
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Cc: "'Ianaplan@Ietf. Org'" <ianaplan@ietf.org>, 'Marc Blanchet' <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for ICG proposal review
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Dear John, Thank you for this. I fully agree with your comments (1), (2), (3), and following, and that's why I don't think that this group should endorse the non-protocol parts of the ICG proposal. Would you be comfortable with the alternative wording proposed by Brian, which is OK for me, and also for Marc? Thanks and best, Richard > -----Original Message----- > From: Ianaplan [mailto:ianaplan-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John C > Klensin > Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 17:46 > To: Richard Hill; 'Eliot Lear'; 'Leslie Daigle (ThinkingCat)' > Cc: 'Ianaplan@Ietf. Org'; 'Marc Blanchet' > Subject: Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for ICG proposal > review > > > > --On Friday, August 21, 2015 18:16 +0200 Richard Hill <rhill@hill-a.ch> > wrote: > > > The problem is that by supporting the entire proposal you are also > > taking a position on the names and addressing proposals. > > And it seems to me that that goes beyond the mandate of this group. > > Richard, > > I've been traveling for the last week or two and haven't read the > various discussions during that period carefully. But I > think I disagree with your statement above. Breaking this > down, it seems to me that it must be acceptable for the IETF to > say: > > (i) We have read the complete proposal and conclude that it addresses > our specific issues and concerns, stated earlier, in an acceptable way. > > (ii) While we see a variety of ways in which assorted other issues > could be worked out and specified, that list and the choices about them > in the current proposal appear to us to not pose a risk to the things > we've identified as important. > Consequently, as the good members of a broader community that we aspire > to be, we are supportive of those things simply because the other > communities want them and they don't seem to pose a problem or > challenge for us. > > Now, that is, I believe, more or less what Eliot is suggesting. > It doesn't mean we would be willing to spill blood (especially IETF > blood) to make sure that the proposals from the names and addresses > groups are adopted, but we can still support them as consistent and > non-harmful. > > I don't see why you consider such a pair of statements, in that form or > another one, a problem. > > Now, whether the IETF actually believes in those statements is another > matter. I've concluded personally that I do not, but I think it is > quite likely that I'm "in the rough" on these issues. In particular: > > (1) ICANN and its many non-IANA roles (some of which I agree with, > others I don't) have become extremely large and complex. > Consequently, I think it is important to distinguish provisions in this > proposal (and elsewhere) that are directly related to IANA, the US > Government role under the current arrangements, and the transition of > that role (either eliminating it or replacing it with some other > arrangement) from provisions whose purpose is to improve those other > ICANN functions. Those other provisions might change how those ICANN > functions are carried out, controlled, or managed, or protect against > abuse of or due to those functions. I personally wish that the > proposal would be rejected by the ICG and the various communities until > the extraneous "let's fix ICANN" elements --including all reflections > of desires to make ICANN the focus of questions about how to "govern" > the Internet or to use ICANN or the Internet more generally to test > assorted interesting sociopolitical or organizational theories -- were > removed. > > (2) I think the broader Internet community, or at least the IETF, > should be working to insure that IANA operations are adequately > responsible to the relevant customer groups _and_ that the IANA > function is accountable to the Internet community. > I've expressed this concern earlier but gotten no improvements as a > result, however, I see the PTI model as potentially (but only > potentially) improving accountability for a small number of > communities, some of them with significant vested economic or > equivalent interests, at the price of reducing accountability to the > Internet at large and maybe even the other customer groups. > I don't see that as an improvement, regardless of its other real or > imaginary organizational benefits (see comment about theory-testing > above). > > (3) Whatever one might say about the NTIA role (and that of the US > Government more generally), how it has been applied, and, perhaps most > important in practice, the horrible optics associated with it, the fact > remains that it has provided an important independent mechanism for > both moderating possible bad behavior on ICANN's part and for appeals > that lie completely outside ICANN's ability to design and define the > procedures and to appoint those who will consider the specifics of > particular cases. Sometimes just having such external mechanisms is > important. They inhibit bad behavior because of the possibility of > intervention if things get bad enough. Equally or more important, if > one were worried about capture by a collection of stakeholders who are > not fully representative of the Internet community, the odds that NTIA > could be captured by that same collection of stakeholders are > vanishingly small. > > A key part of the issue here is that "multistakeholder" has, many times > in this context, come to mean "anyone with an opinion, regardless of > knowledge or actual material concern and involvement with the > substantive issues". That is very much different from IETF values and > traditions: we tend (and try) to value knowledge, experience, and > actual involvement with the subject matter over what we evaluate as > wild theorizing. That particular version of "multistakeholder", > especially in its ICANN incarnation, tends to give great power to > factions with the interest and resources to make seemingly-unlimited > investments in the process. That doesn't require malfeasance, only the > ability to create many committees, meetings, and long and complex > documents until no one other than those particular interested and > invested parties (and those subsidized by ICANN) can afford to > participate in practice. > > To transition away from having the US Government in the oversight and > appeal (whether from the broad community or from governments via > diplomatic channels) role described above requires that one either have > a separate oversight and appeal mechanism that is similar to the NTIA > one in not being under control of ICANN or any constituency that might > capture or dominate ICANN decision making... or one must have complete > trust that ICANN cannot be captured, has conflict of interest policies > that protect against decisions being dominated by a single self- > interested party or cluster of them, and that it will always (now and > in the future) act in the best interests of the Internet, even when > those interests conflict with the organizational best interests of > ICANN as an organization. > Absent that level of trust, "independent" review mechanisms created by > ICANN don't do the job because ICANN can control the criteria for > appointments, the working procedures, and, ultimately, the membership > of those bodies whether the criteria > are satisfied or not. Sadly, I don't have that level of trust, > if only because ICANN has, even in the last few years, repeatedly > provided examples that contradict it. > > It seems clear to me that most of that latter group of concerns are out > of scope for IANAPlan, although not necessarily so for > the IETF and IAB. I hope that various of us who do have them > will comment more generally on the process and situation and, if > necessary, on any public call for comment that NTIA and other > institutions may produce in the future. > > best, > john > > > _______________________________________________ > Ianaplan mailing list > Ianaplan@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ianaplan
- [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for ICG p… Leslie Daigle (ThinkingCat)
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Richard Hill
- [Ianaplan] Please keep context in mind Re: Consen… Leslie Daigle (ThinkingCat)
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Leslie Daigle (ThinkingCat)
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… John C Klensin
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… John C Klensin
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… JFC Morfin
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Consensus call -- text reply for I… John C Klensin