Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF proposal development process
Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> Mon, 26 January 2015 03:41 UTC
Return-Path: <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>
X-Original-To: ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05EFD1A1BDB for <ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:41:58 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 2.559
X-Spam-Level: **
X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bvyycqdEN_0D for <ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:41:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mx1.yitter.info (ow5p.x.rootbsd.net [208.79.81.114]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D24D41A1BD2 for <ianaplan@ietf.org>; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:41:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mx1.yitter.info (unknown [50.189.173.0]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B510B8A031 for <ianaplan@ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 03:41:55 +0000 (UTC)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 22:41:54 -0500
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>
To: ianaplan@ietf.org
Message-ID: <20150126034153.GE77105@mx1.yitter.info>
References: <1F30A463-76A9-4854-952A-35C54E42D2C6@istaff.org> <CAOW+2dvd1QRC6xbDTZ6ah23HfX=K=SeXDc1kXr2NREAcy37SvQ@mail.gmail.com> <54C13630.3050601@meetinghouse.net> <54C3D305.6030705@acm.org> <20150125201843.GB76865@mx1.yitter.info> <c258dfbdcb3b45f3a5d239fc6c3f0246@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu> <20150126024813.GB77105@mx1.yitter.info> <54C5ABCB.20000@meetinghouse.net> <20150126030945.GD77105@mx1.yitter.info> <54C5B476.6030900@meetinghouse.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <54C5B476.6030900@meetinghouse.net>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12)
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ianaplan/JGUJouOMtlwFDKwNWPvdC_xiIk4>
Subject: Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF proposal development process
X-BeenThere: ianaplan@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IANA Plan <ianaplan.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ianaplan>, <mailto:ianaplan-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ianaplan/>
List-Post: <mailto:ianaplan@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ianaplan-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ianaplan>, <mailto:ianaplan-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 03:41:58 -0000
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 10:28:54PM -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Well, on that later note, all I can say is that every time I get involved in > a proposal effort, lots of people review the terms and conditions section, > and provide input to council - we don't treat it as out-of-scope. Do I read you correctly as suggesting that the IAOC needs input on terms when it makes agreements? If so, I think that is sort of right, and sort of not. The IAOC is not one person, of course, so to begin with we already have a group of people who are reviewing one another's work. Those people are appointed in different ways, so that it's not even one point of view that arranges the appointment. Second, the IAOC works on instruction from the IETF. If the IAOC came back with some agreement that was contrary to IETF consensus, there'd be a big to-do. And the chair of the IETF sits on the IAOC _ex officio_, which means that the interests of IETF consensus are formally inside the room. Third, the IAOC is exquisitely sensitive to these sorts of issues. I seem to recall the IAOC asking specifically some questions around a knotty decision they had to make, involving some cost-vs.-participation trade-offs. It doesn't happen often -- you really can't practically negotiate a contract with one party arriving with 1200 of their closest friends -- but I think the IAOC tries rather hard to strike the right balance (and when they mess up, boy do they hear about it). This is the way the IETF does it. It's of course not perfect, and I can see ways in which, were one inclined to think that processes can be written to ensure nothing bad can happen, one would want to alter the approach we're using. I happen not to believe in processes to that degree, and prefer an arrangement in which the community review of results (coupled with the logical possibility of recall) sends adequate feedback to a body of people who have in the past shown themselves to use sound judgement. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
- [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF pro… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John C Klensin
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John C Klensin
- [Ianaplan] You told us not to trust you anymore [… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Avri Doria
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Avri Doria
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Russ Housley
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Avri Doria
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… JFC Morfin
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… JFC Morfin