Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF proposal development process
Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> Tue, 27 January 2015 00:26 UTC
Return-Path: <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
X-Original-To: ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070C01A00B0 for <ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 16:26:38 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.91
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8wgDBohSWj62 for <ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 16:26:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2a00:1d50:2::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BAE81A036C for <ianaplan@ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 16:26:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD362CC61 for <ianaplan@ietf.org>; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 02:26:31 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from jari.arkko@piuha.net)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net
Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jqK_-0RNM7Dr for <ianaplan@ietf.org>; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 02:26:30 +0200 (EET)
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2a00:1d50:2::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBD62CC4D for <ianaplan@ietf.org>; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 02:26:30 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from jari.arkko@piuha.net)
From: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DD3043C9-5C97-4FA9-B499-F0650CF28492"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha512"
Message-Id: <67A0530C-F9D4-4A8B-A05C-C60A830A2C91@piuha.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\))
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 02:26:26 +0200
References: <C172BBB7-9BA4-4BA7-848C-C7FE5B66CBF7@cooperw.in> <F8FC64C8-6FC7-4672-B18B-46DF993A653A@cooperw.in> <54C091D2.9050608@gmail.com> <1F30A463-76A9-4854-952A-35C54E42D2C6@istaff.org> <CAOW+2dvd1QRC6xbDTZ6ah23HfX=K=SeXDc1kXr2NREAcy37SvQ@mail.gmail.com> <54C13630.3050601@meetinghouse.net> <54C3D305.6030705@acm.org> <CAOW+2dv874BemFi=nSTgHQNO+7DpwhrjpVizhiEVaDK_bRzg4A@mail.gmail.com> <CAD_dc6j9vb14uPiPuAqh6-N9uyzqySv=WMb6_CVGQfob1iv95g@mail.gmail.com> <CAOW+2dsqqM_LbtxDqM0_2VmNj2e96Tifj=qpa5f1b5eAoKk9Tg@mail.gmail.com> <CAD_dc6gO=ygL7jotyqt0w0CJBnm74Apa9R6AZT5sHHmQRgQC8w@mail.gmail.com> <FB61D443-1613-4353-AA57-143800E6B425@piuha.net>
To: "Ianaplan@Ietf. Org" <ianaplan@ietf.org>
In-Reply-To: <FB61D443-1613-4353-AA57-143800E6B425@piuha.net>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6)
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ianaplan/nGqFpBjbr5PHbxvXUwjCPQmzuq4>
Subject: Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF proposal development process
X-BeenThere: ianaplan@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IANA Plan <ianaplan.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ianaplan>, <mailto:ianaplan-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ianaplan/>
List-Post: <mailto:ianaplan@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ianaplan-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ianaplan>, <mailto:ianaplan-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 00:26:38 -0000
I’d like to suggest a constructive way forward. First, I think we should observe that the ICG process put the planning and proposal efforts on purpose into the community processes. Those are the processes that we run. They are probably not perfect, they are certainly not the only possible ones, but they are processes that have existed and evolved for decades. The IANA transition is not an opportunity to redefine these processes. Second, the community has had a very clear opinion about matters, and re-opening discussions is not good practice. As usual, there are some issue where agreement was not universal. Disagreement with otherwise broad consensus is not grounds for re-opening a discussion. Third, I want everyone to focus on the concept that we’ve completed a step but that is not the last one. Among other things, the transition might involve some contract-termination/negotiation/renegotiation. And even if it would be very convenient, even IETF consensus doesn’t allow us to sign stuff in the name of other organisations :-) Or resolve conflicts between the three community proposals. So I would suggest that we stick to our clear direction from the WG, sit back, and see what these additional steps will bring. We will see updates as ICG, IAOC, and others have something to say, and any changes of direction will obviously need community feedback. Fourth, I wanted to go a bit back to the original e-mail that started this thread (finally!). As noted above, I think it would be inappropriate to start redefining the IETF process, and I think we’ve provided far more explanation about where we are and why than we’ve done in the approval process of most other IETF documents. One of the features of the IETF process is the expectation that most participants usually track the development of the community opinion, and conclusions are usually understood even before they are formally made. And when those conclusions get made, they can be brief, as the full discussion is visible on the mailing list archive. Yet, I have been talking to Milton and he has a point about communities understanding their own process well, but it being more difficult for newcomers, and in particular, complete outsiders that view the events later. I’d like to suggest that we produce an informal explanation of the process that helps provide visibility to people at large about what happened in the development of the IETF proposal from IANAPLAN WG. This is not a rerun of the process, an official document, or an opportunity to re-open discussions, but I think it would help us in the coming months as more people will be asking about our proposals. I’ll work with the chairs to produce that. Jari
- [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF pro… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John C Klensin
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John C Klensin
- [Ianaplan] You told us not to trust you anymore [… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Avri Doria
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Avri Doria
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Russ Housley
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Avri Doria
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… JFC Morfin
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… JFC Morfin