Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-02 working group last call)
Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> Thu, 06 November 2014 00:11 UTC
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Subject: Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-02 working group last call)
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'Andrew Sullivan' wrote: > On Wed, Nov 05, 2014 at 10:07:15PM +0000, Milton L Mueller wrote: > >>> And by my reckoning, there is as yet no consensus to ask for >>> iana.org or the IANA trademark. >> There is certainly a preponderance of opinion that we should. Failing to ask for it certainly has no consensus. > "Preponderance of opinion" is not the way the IETF works. We work by > rough consensus, and it is possible in rough consensus for even one > lone voice to derail the consensus, if the argument is strong. See below. > >> That's true enough, and a good point, so why is Miles's suggestion greeted with such panic? > I'm not panicking. Miles is suggesting that there's something > _outside_ IETF processes -- the IAOC, some lawyers, the IAB, anything > -- that is appropriately brought to bear here. I argue that, on the > contrary, there really _isn't_ anything outside the WG in IETF terms. > So Miles says, "Well, IETF processes are inappropriate for this, > because $some_authoritay_not_here." I agree with him that there isn't > some external Internet Boss who can decide. I think that's a feature, > not a bug. No.. I'm NOT saying some Internet Boss outside the IETF. I'm saying that processes for addressing technical issues are inadequate for dealing with issues that go beyond technical issues (kind of sounds like a tautology). The IETF process for dealing with contracts is to delegate things to the IAOC, rather than deliberate them the way protocol issues are deliberated. The IAB and IAOC are part of the IETF, but are not normally part of the technical process. I'm suggesting that the process needs to expand it's scope and participation beyond the technical, to include parts of IETF that are not normally part of protocol standardization. Nothing more. > >> You're missing the point about confidence in standards. To continue >> with the financial analogy, you are in effect saying, "we don't mind >> if people issue counterfeit money, everyone knows where to get the >> real stuff." > No, I'm saying that is indeed a serious risk, and we ought to worry > about it, but that meaningless shibboleths (viz. "the domain name > where I got this") are not a protection. If we think that there is a > real problem with the legitimacy of data in the IETF registries, then > we should sign the data. (And in fact, I think we _should_ sign the > data. But that's not part of this transition, because it has nothing > to do with outside people.) > >> of people will be confused. And since the costs or downsides of >> controlling the domain and the trademark are negligible, why take >> that risk? Have you ever described one bad thing that would happen >> if this proposal calls for moving the trademark or the domain? I >> don't think you have. > No, I have, but you reject the premise. I have said that it forces us > to negotiate with ICANN, potentially giving up something that we want > instead of this. You reject the idea that we'll have to negotiate > over this, because NTIA will simply impose whatever we ask for. In my > opinion, that is a dangerous fantasy. ICANN is also the source of the > "names community" input to the ICG. Just as we have the opportunity > to comment on and express our views about the other communities' > proposals where they don't fit with our understanding, the other > communities will have a chance to do the same for us. I just find it > implausible that ICANN wouldn't care about this, but I believe that > there are people busily trying to find out. If I am wrong, I'll > cheerfully withdraw my objection. Personally, I agree that raising the issue, and stating a position may force us to negotiate with ICANN (and with other players). I'll ask the question: why is that a problem, or something to be avoided? Most contracts are negotiated. The MoU, presumably, was negotiated. The NTIA contract that is being replaced was negotiated. Rather, I'd suggest that we acknowledge that there's going to be some issues that folks disagree on, and that some negotiation is going to be involved in getting to a consensus proposal to NTIA. And I'll state the opinion that it's better to identify and understand ALL the issues, not just the technical ones; to have a clear idea of what the IETF community believes to be desirable outcomes, in clear language (in this case, clear contractual language, rather than technical language and references to other documents), and to have some idea of how negotiations might go (which further suggests a distinction between desired outcomes and ideal language vs. minimally acceptable outcomes and language). That kind of suggests that IETF's lawyers and negotiators, as well as those in the community with such experience, be part of the drafting of the IETF proposal to the ICG. Again, as a matter of personal opinion, I am concerned about how quick we have been to water down language, at least in some areas, to near meaningless - in what appears to be a fear of confrontation, or offending ICANN, or some such. That's not a good way to go into a situation where negotiations and compromises will have to be made. To the specific issues at hand, that of the iana.org trademark and domain registration: 1.If there's a good reason to believe that the transition, and post-transition world would be better served by having the iana.org trademark and domain registration in hands other than those of the iana functions contractor - better to be specific about that, and then hash out details with the multiple stakeholder communities as part of the upstream ICG process. If we think the IETF Trust would be a good custodian, let's state that, and then see how other communities feel about the issue, and if they have counterproposals. 2. Regarding other intellectual property issues - someone (Richard, Martin?) just raised the issue of whether the public domain is the right model for IETF/registry data. It strikes me that there are legitimate concerns about whether releasing data into the public domain allows for too little control, and potentially too much mischief re. how that data is used, copied, etc. There are reasons why most open source software is released under a copyright license, not simply published into the public domain - it could well be that a carefully crafted copyright license (along the lines of GPL, or a Creative Commons license) might be more appropriate. This is one where input from lawyers would be very appropriate. In short, nobody in their right minds (IMHO) prepares a proposal without input from subject matter experts in all the relevant areas - why are we? Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
- [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-02 wo… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Brian Trammell
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Andrei Robachevsky
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Richard Hill
- [Ianaplan] Quibbling about origins (was Re: draft… Dave Crocker
- [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: draft… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Eliot Lear
- [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: draft… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… David Conrad
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… David Conrad
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… JFC Morfin
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- [Ianaplan] A Libre IUser community Draft Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] A Libre IUser community Draft Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] draft-ietf-ianaplan-icg-response-0… Andrei Robachevsky
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… JFC Morfin
- [Ianaplan] Where this WG fits Re: control and neg… Leslie Daigle (TCE)
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… 'Andrew Sullivan'
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- [Ianaplan] making ARPA explicit (Re: draft-ietf-i… Olaf Kolkman
- Re: [Ianaplan] making ARPA explicit (Re: draft-ie… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Where this WG fits Re: control and… JFC Morfin
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Jefsey
- [Ianaplan] Delay in my IESG appeal JFC Morfin
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… 'Andrew Sullivan'
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] making ARPA explicit (Re: draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] making ARPA explicit (Re: draft-ie… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… David Conrad
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… David Conrad
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… David Conrad
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Eric Burger
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… David Conrad
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… 'Andrew Sullivan'
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Brian Trammell
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- [Ianaplan] IETF's role Re: control and negotiatio… Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] IETF's role Re: control and negoti… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… JFC Morfin
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… JFC Morfin
- Re: [Ianaplan] making ARPA explicit (Re: draft-ie… Andrei Robachevsky
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… manning bill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] making ARPA explicit (Re: draft-ie… JFC Morfin
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… manning bill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] making ARPA explicit (Re: draft-ie… Andrei Robachevsky
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… manning bill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… manning bill
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… David Conrad
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] control and negotiation (was Re: d… Jari Arkko