Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF proposal development process
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Mon, 26 January 2015 04:38 UTC
Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071161A1BC9 for <ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 20:38:00 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ViUtLYeXo0Jr for <ianaplan@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 20:37:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-pd0-x230.google.com (mail-pd0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 443FD1A1B85 for <ianaplan@ietf.org>; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 20:37:58 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-pd0-f176.google.com with SMTP id y10so9799395pdj.7 for <ianaplan@ietf.org>; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 20:37:57 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WHrQkhwb47aNQEUp6c+dv4rAP1OBHJgaVA+18K54Cpw=; b=XQyV/PXk6a4VJzDF0hn6JT+pMM8deal62C+cl5gYih/J/vygoSnbmtXwPNTLwCQOmt jp+qRpTrtqx/MOFa1KipSiE3jPN4i4g7FbWJiF/nbJRaRqoVaHkvfzNbPWMg2WgmmZ1h USwDMD73Qt6C4nyqFllHxGYXt8EK3CxUEmT1xyamoPf/fbeC9S6RgrNKoOmqTsqFNuV6 ytIYck33GSlpu798j4zx7hMD6KrsA41JliSUJFHGvgd98K8LfbM2H/pgMk88tiFnl3o2 0NXaFuZIu37Y2nkvwcfVBJkjRvMvIQ/COAFzelHic0zmS2x0iWgfi4jk/IPsk+eaZUDv iPdw==
X-Received: by 10.66.66.102 with SMTP id e6mr31961960pat.6.1422247077523; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 20:37:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:5f94:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:5f94:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id uf3sm8592087pbc.25.2015.01.25.20.37.54 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 25 Jan 2015 20:37:56 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <54C5C4A1.7070100@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 17:37:53 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>, ianaplan@ietf.org
References: <F8FC64C8-6FC7-4672-B18B-46DF993A653A@cooperw.in> <54C091D2.9050608@gmail.com> <1F30A463-76A9-4854-952A-35C54E42D2C6@istaff.org> <CAOW+2dvd1QRC6xbDTZ6ah23HfX=K=SeXDc1kXr2NREAcy37SvQ@mail.gmail.com> <54C13630.3050601@meetinghouse.net> <54C3D305.6030705@acm.org> <20150125201843.GB76865@mx1.yitter.info> <c258dfbdcb3b45f3a5d239fc6c3f0246@EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu> <20150126024813.GB77105@mx1.yitter.info> <54C5ABCB.20000@meetinghouse.net> <20150126030945.GD77105@mx1.yitter.info> <54C5B476.6030900@meetinghouse.net>
In-Reply-To: <54C5B476.6030900@meetinghouse.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ianaplan/xKYaM42iSPxOlpxoDYMzXHrSoPc>
Subject: Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF proposal development process
X-BeenThere: ianaplan@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IANA Plan <ianaplan.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ianaplan>, <mailto:ianaplan-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ianaplan/>
List-Post: <mailto:ianaplan@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ianaplan-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ianaplan>, <mailto:ianaplan-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 04:38:00 -0000
On 26/01/2015 16:28, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Andrew Sullivan wrote: >> On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 09:51:55PM -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: >>> No... that's not crystal clear. What's crystal clear is that the WG >>> leadership, and a majority of participants, felt that it was beyond its >>> charter to comment on legal and contractual issues, and didn't want to get >>> into them. >> I guess we disagree about this. I will say, however, that the idea >> that a WG could negotiate a contract seems to me a little optimistic. >> As I understand it, that very difficulty is the reason the IETF came >> up with the IAOC in the first place. >> > Well, on that later note, all I can say is that every time I get involved in a proposal effort, lots of people review the terms > and conditions section, and provide input to council - we don't treat it as out-of-scope. What Andrew said. Also, when the original IETF/ICANN MoU was negotiated, the first draft (which said what *we* wanted) was developed mainly as an IAB effort with IESG involvement, and debated in the POISSON WG (the venue for IETF process discussions at that time). But the legal details were negotiated between the IAB & IETF Chairs (me and Fred Baker) with advice from our counsel and the ICANN President with advice from his counsel. Today, we have the IAOC and its counsel for our side of that negotiation. Otherwise, there's really no difference; the IAOC is answerable to the IETF, just as the IAB & IETF Chairs were 15 years ago. We trust them to come back to the community if points of principle arise, but not for tweaks to legal language. Brian
- [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF pro… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John C Klensin
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John C Klensin
- [Ianaplan] You told us not to trust you anymore [… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Avri Doria
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… John Curran
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Avri Doria
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Milton L Mueller
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Russ Housley
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Miles Fidelman
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Avri Doria
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… JFC Morfin
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Seun Ojedeji
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Richard Hill
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Jefsey
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ianaplan] Process concern regarding the IETF… JFC Morfin