Re: [Iasa20] Recall details in rfc7437bis

["Adrian Farrel" <[e-mail]>]

Thanks for having this discussion and reaching a good way forward.

I hate to pick (no, really, I do), but...

   There are two different types
   of petitions: a petition by participants of the IETF community, and a
   petition by the Ombudsteam as described in [RFC7776].

I going to have some trouble because,
- we are updating 7776 to move the recall process to *this* document
- section 7.1.2 (correctly) describes this process.

So, I would suggest...

   There are two different types
   of petitions: a petition by participants of the IETF community, and a
   petition by the Ombudsteam [RFC7776] as described in Section 7.1.2.

And in 7.1.2...

OLD
   The Ombudsteam process allows the Ombudsteam to form a recall
   petition on its own without requiring 20 signatories from the
   community.  As defined in [RFC7776], the petition and its signatories
   (the Ombudsteam) shall be announced to the IETF community, and a
   Recall Committee Chair shall be appointed to complete the Recall
   Committee process.  It is expected that the Recall Committee will
   receive a briefing from the Ombudsteam explaining why recall is
   considered an appropriate remedy.
NEW
   The Ombudsteam process [RFC7776] allows the Ombudsteam to
   form a recall petition on its own without requiring any signatories
   from the community.  The petition and its signatories (the
   Ombudsteam) shall be announced to the IETF community, and a
   Recall Committee Chair shall be appointed to complete the Recall
   Committee process.  It is expected that the Recall Committee will
   receive a briefing from the Ombudsteam explaining why recall is
   considered an appropriate remedy.
END

Many thanks,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: iasa20 <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter
Sent: 10 April 2019 21:22
To: Alissa Cooper <[e-mail]>
Cc: John C Klensin <[e-mail]>om>; IASA 2 WG <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Iasa20] Recall details in rfc7437bis

And for me.

Thanks
   Brian

On 11-Apr-19 03:58, John C Klensin wrote:
> Alissa,
> 
> Works for me. 
> thanks
>    john
> 
> 
> --On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 11:45 -0400 Alissa Cooper
> <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
>> Changed the subject line and dropped the IESG and others from
>> the recipients list since this is about a different WG
>> document.
>>
>> I commented on the issue in light of this email thread:
>> https://github.com/IASA2/RFC-7437-bis/issues/9
>> <https://github.com/IASA2/RFC-7437-bis/issues/9>
>>
>> Also posting the text here for discussion:
>>
>> I thought the WG discussion was clear that recall should not
>> apply to the ISOC-appointed director, but should apply to the
>> board-appointed directors. This is also reflected in the LLC
>> agreement. I haven't re-reviewed the threads though.
>>
>> There is actually an additional change that would need to be
>> made in 7.1 that I missed before, to make all of this align.
>> And text is needed to address John Klensin's point about two
>> recall petitions versus one. So something like this could
>> capture all of that:
>>
>> Member, Trustee, and Director Recall
>> The following rules apply to the recall process. If necessary,
>> a paragraph discussing the interpretation of each rule is
>> included.
>>
>> It applies to IESG and IAB Members, the NomCom appointed IETF
>> Trust Trustees, and all IETF LLC Directors except the
>> ISOC-appointed LLC Director.
>>
>> 7.1. Petition
>>
>> At any time, a signed petition (email is acceptable) may be
>> submitted to the Internet Society President to request the
>> recall of any sitting IESG or IAB member, or NomCom appointed
>> IETF Trust Trustee, or any IETF LLC Director except the
>> ISOC-appointed Director. There are two different types of
>> petitions: a petition by participants of the IETF community,
>> and a petition by the Ombudsteam as described in [RFC7776].
>>
>> A petition to recall an individual who is simultaneously
>> serving as both an IETF LLC Director and in another role that
>> is eligible for recall may request that the individual be
>> recalled from one role or both roles.
>>
>> Alissa
>>
>>> On Apr 10, 2019, at 9:40 AM, John C Klensin
>>> <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Barry,
>>>
>>> Agree completely.  While a personally prefer to treat the two
>>> positions as separate (and requiring separate removal actions)
>>> for the reason you describe, my main concern is only that we
>>> reach some agreement and be clear about it.  This is not the
>>> sort of thing we can, as John Levine and Bob Hinden suggested
>>> for what I assume are other issues, wait until there is a
>>> problem and then sort things out ex post facto.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>>   john
>>>
>>>
>>> --On Wednesday, April 10, 2019 08:50 -0400 Barry Leiba
>>> <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It also raises the question I've tried to ask before: if an
>>>>> IESG member (Chair or otherwise) who is serving as a
>>>>> Director resigns or is recalled from the IESG, does that
>>>>> action remove that person from the LLC Board position, or
>>>>> are the two positions essentially separate?
>>>>
>>>> Alissa's proposed text addresses that by making it clear that
>>>> regardless of how the IESG appointee is appointed, the person
>>>> serves a full term as LLC Director.
>>>>
>>>> That does mean that, with a recall situation, there need to
>>>> be two recalls done.  Perhaps they could be bundled into one
>>>> recall (in the case, for instance, of someone who
>>>> disappears). But I think it's good to be able to separate
>>>> them, in a case, say, of an AD who is egregiously bad, but
>>>> who is doing fine on the LLC Board.
>>>>
>>>> Barry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> iasa20 mailing list
>>> [e-mail]
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iasa20
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
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