Re: [Iasa20] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> Mon, 08 July 2019 15:14 UTC

Return-Path: <alissa@cooperw.in>
X-Original-To: iasa20@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: iasa20@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2BD12028C; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 08:14:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.7
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=pXBEyBYJ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=fCr48W8A
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ytVVDLZdmE2i; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 08:14:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77CFA120304; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 08:14:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B3E697; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:14:06 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 08 Jul 2019 11:14:06 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=M obmKmLlAIqw663gzuAYj2ZDo/YFD+OW9IhVJWWHW/w=; b=pXBEyBYJMNa/HgnnE r7JMHdkA6h5lJJuX4TITuHe/eSr3LAGssECFlUKHV75B3V0qbSKMl3CeySWG3RT6 c6/P+mQJdLDrGFrWgK989DiiIsPcmUm/lY2mbMrqwlkvAJdJ2C1MAWGGro8E5bFa hmvl8zwdJsvCSQfeaZ19o+5rPDy5VjoKudfzSHAIyfh0lqMXk04/3vuvM23d9JHa 5LkJv91DB1EQCbigJ+Yh7JnP3YVU5myyDeth+stqgBx1gIxY7yAjhm2Se4UMViS3 zDnemRZwC0u94G7c725E3bSRbsty/LwzIOZHcECqzwg95GMwF5H7/qr/bKFcTMqO sUDeA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=MobmKmLlAIqw663gzuAYj2ZDo/YFD+OW9IhVJWWHW /w=; b=fCr48W8AdYxclF1vWSwXN05ncrxJbWh2NAKycca63QrnCJhZy2/8rf8Ue zg2ipXKSiSF5zQX2sScA31XI9JBUcNeXyrNtiMWQqDveZSoXSGmz65agAng5Z16c stMwPc6RM6ch+7pgi5AokKWUwwBJEiC2Jx3hoA/S+fCzxtkGYznoR2JSRuMlCT3P Xcl1riaGGb2miVYFldir+UzIN1Q4OnUXrQ93kPCDfjI9mnQjQGHIwUzZg+iu621g i1dis+x4h5AzGwTaJ7vUuHSkLzroxUZ3tSCADnB0RmOZX5ziD8nWywuhC62mML4T tvpaGiZah0FGCvFkLsthbs062VKyg==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:vV0jXX9Cl3gWXiAfcIgJeVgmYdQ-EaljU8efsm0kotdmw1U8qzxEVw>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrgedtgdekkecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeetlhhishhs rgcuvehoohhpvghruceorghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinheqnecuffhomhgrih hnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepudejfedrfeekrdduudejrdejgeenucfrrghrrghm pehmrghilhhfrhhomheprghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinhenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedt
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:vV0jXV9uB6z6AvjD6CWJjXdlw-_12O0lPBqHRZHAUKfsRmQLHPxHPw> <xmx:vV0jXXQ0K_mZ40pGMH4dqyuqp-_eo587QBirWcMynjm8cgF9GedNhw> <xmx:vV0jXZf7JGpItlsNC1J628GqZdBlr3ugCFy1__O77JW99BtLTRL_Iw> <xmx:vV0jXQUJCCoHvdoYPkFP0kwuJ9vp0tKwDr1ToaiZosZsYK-fbiImuA>
Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro2.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.74]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E2C6E80061; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:14:04 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\))
From: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
In-Reply-To: <CALaySJ+N20pRmd58EZjtaBERGWo=F3S-2yQqRjsgvN9AJO+n9w@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:14:03 -0400
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, IASA 2 WG <iasa20@ietf.org>, iasa2-chairs@ietf.org, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis@ietf.org, Jon Peterson <jon.peterson@team.neustar>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <09C83635-DC7B-47BD-999D-2E6D0BBCA68F@cooperw.in>
References: <156141779186.17522.6942767062911073521.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1C131171-0ABE-4DB1-BEB7-03E765B1E6C6@cooperw.in> <CALaySJKHut1EL_eKQ5rhSXFeF6_+EizwcHdhxhieRy3D3dzQwg@mail.gmail.com> <F15F78D3-2257-4F1B-B832-D9C7CC47E512@gmail.com> <CALaySJK+=W6FwMcHJ-nuyZFmvukMN_GUh6qDAWvwHnizyZqy9A@mail.gmail.com> <4710C519-37CC-4586-83E7-02776889370F@gmail.com> <CALaySJ+1q4jrFk9+g=kwk86Lc=GMpFniFWXoNYsidOL6F_uZag@mail.gmail.com> <cc578052-6be1-6a5a-f05f-2bf38d3210dc@gmail.com> <CALaySJ+64zmmbtYy4P+ke9q78MdrKitDCNk=8ErtoD7HzeLY_Q@mail.gmail.com> <CALaySJ+N20pRmd58EZjtaBERGWo=F3S-2yQqRjsgvN9AJO+n9w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iasa20/ReEdEOWai7m5eQrLivnBRTfujHo>
Subject: Re: [Iasa20] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: iasa20@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: =?iso-8859-1?q?Discussions_relating_to_reorganising_the_IETF_administrative_structures_in_the_so_called_=93IASA_2=2E0=94_project=2E?= <iasa20.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/iasa20>, <mailto:iasa20-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/iasa20/>
List-Post: <mailto:iasa20@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:iasa20-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iasa20>, <mailto:iasa20-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 15:14:54 -0000

Hi Barry,

The exception in the document seems consistent with the following hypothetical situation:

The nomcom for year 2035-2036 has been seated. Alice has been on the IAB for one year. She is also a nominee for an AD position in the Foo area. There are also six open positions on the IAB.

The nomcom does its deliberations and selects Alice to be the next Foo AD. They also select six people to serve on the IAB. They send the IESG slate to the IAB for confirmation and the IAB, with Alice recused, confirms the slate. Alice resigns from her position on the IAB. The IAB chair informs the nomcom of the mid-term vacancy created by Alice resigning. The nomcom selects a seventh candidate to serve on the IAB (since they have a pool of nominees and filling the vacancy is a responsibility of the 2035-2036 nomcom) and sends the IAB slate to the ISOC BoT for confirmation. The announcements of the confirmed slates and of Alice’s resignation from the IAB then happen simultaneously.

I think this is different from the 2013 situation because all of the events are taking place during the established nomcom timeline for getting people seated by the first IETF meeting of the year, so the IAB candidate pool for 2036 is still “active,” so to speak.

Alissa

> On Jul 8, 2019, at 10:53 AM, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
> 
> And, so, back to this.
> 
> Repeating from the other thread: my goal here is not to get in the way
> of approving this very important document, nor to make any process
> change.  My goal is to get clarity on something that I think is at
> best unclear.
> 
> What "exception", exactly, is the text in the second half of Section
> 3.8 trying to make?  How is it possible for the NomCom to fill the
> vacated IAB slot without informing the community that it's doing so?
> And if it informs the community, how is it possible to do that without
> announcing the resignation of the IAB member?
> 
> It's possible that the fix to this issue is simply a sentence that
> better explains what's meant by "the following exception".  But the
> following text doesn't make it clear to me, and instead seems
> impossible to comply with.  Please help me understand.
> 
> Barry
> 
> On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 8:20 PM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi, Brian.
>> 
>>>> Maybe what I really don't understand is the exception that allows the
>>>> replacement process to be done before the vacancy is announced.
>>> 
>>> I don't believe that is the intention. I think the intention was to describe
>>> exactly what happened in 2013:
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/ogw1xIIrxXN-ExzUmordL1uXetk
>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/EwBi_PHbPs3a4CqJwYDjObb2VSc
>>> i.e. an hour or so after an IAB member was announced as a new AD, NomCom
>>> started the mid-term vacancy process. (I assume that in the intervening hour,
>>> the IAB member resigned and the IAB duly informed NomCom of the vacancy.)
>>> 
>>> In other words "The process [...] of filling the seat" includes a call for
>>> nominations, as it did in 2013. (The fact that it happened in May rather
>>> than before the MArch IETF is beside the point, I think.)
>>> 
>>> I think that in this sentence:
>>> "The resignation may remain confidential to the IAB,
>>> IAOC, IESG, and nominating committee until the confirmed candidate is
>>> announced for the new position."
>>> the phrase "the new position" means (in the 2013 case) the Transport AD
>>> position. Filling in the unknowns, the sentence reads:
>>> "Spencer's resignation from the IAB may remain confidential to the IAB,
>>> IAOC, IESG, and nominating committee until Spencer is announced as
>>> the new Transport AD."
>> 
>> Sure, but that's not what the text says:
>> 
>>   It is consistent with these rules for the announcements of a
>>   resignation of a sitting member of the IAB and of the confirmed
>>   candidate for the mid-term vacancy created by that sitting member on
>>   the IAB to all occur at the same time
>> 
>> Putting the 2013 specifics into that:
>> 
>>   It is consistent with these rules for the announcements of a
>>   resignation of a Spencer from the IAB and **of the confirmed
>>   candidate to replace Spencer** to all occur at the same time
>> 
>> That second part is very different from the announcement of Spencer as
>> TSV AD (which I agree is no problem at all).  Having it as I've
>> inserted the 2013 specifics implies that Spencer's replacement on the
>> IAB was selected without letting community know that it was happening.
>> 
>> Barry