Re: [Iasa20] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc4071bis-09: (with COMMENT)

[Benjamin Kaduk <[e-mail]>]

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 11:05:48AM -0400, Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote:
> Thanks, Ben! Responses inline, pointing to opened github issues that we'll
> bang out shortly...
> 
> On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 9:24 AM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Four paragraphs is fairly long for an Abstract.
> >
> >
> This is a pretty foundational document, so I think it's a rarity.
> 
> 
> > Section 1
> >
> >                                                            Under this
> >    structure, the Internet Administrative Oversight Committee (IAOC) is
> >    eliminated, and its oversight and advising functions transferred to
> >    the IETF LLC Board.
> >
> > (I note that the Abstract uses the past tense "was eliminated", and also
> > differs about whether the 'I' is "Internet" or "IETF".)
> > Are we comfortable tossing out the concept of the IAOC with no lead-up
> > or reference?
> >
> >
> We'll fix both the tense confusion (will try to prefer present tense, if
> possible):
> 
> https://github.com/IASA2/draft-ietf-iasa2-struct/issues/99
> 
> Should we point to the definitions to fix the last problem? We can easily
> say "See Section 4.1" for the definitions or we could insert something like:
> 
> OLD
> 
> Under this
>    structure, the Internet Administrative Oversight Committee (IAOC) is
>    eliminated, and its oversight and advising functions transferred to
>    the IETF LLC Board.
> 
> NEW
> 
> Under this
>    structure, the IETF Administrative Oversight Committee (IAOC) --
>    the previous administrative oversight body for the IETF -- is
>    eliminated, and its oversight and advising functions transferred to
>    the IETF LLC Board.
> 
> Holler if that works.

This looks better to me, but do note that this is a non-blocking comment
and I do not expect any specific change just on my account.

> Section 2
> >
> > It's great to say that no changes are made, but that doesn't help
> > someone looking for the current procedures if we don't provide a
> > reference to what the current procedures are.
> >
> >
> Here, are you saying that we should enrich that paragraph with citations?

Well, it's not entirely clear.  It could easily become a linkfest that
doesn't help anyone, and the standard other solution (just removing the
non-normative text) doesn't really seem appropriate in this case.

> So, something like:
> 
> OLD
> 
> The document does not propose any changes related to the standards
>    process as currently conducted by the Internet Engineering Steering
>    Group (IESG) and Internet Architecture Board (IAB).  In addition, no
>    changes are made to the appeals chain, the process for making and
>    confirming IETF and IAB appointments, the technical work of the
>    Internet Research Task Force (IRTF), or to ISOC's membership in or
>    support of other organizations.
> 
> NEW (added three BCP refs):
> 
> The document does not propose any changes related to the standards
>    process as currently conducted by the Internet Engineering Steering
>    Group (IESG) and Internet Architecture Board (IAB) [BCP 9].  In
> addition, no
>    changes are made to the appeals chain, the process for making and
>    confirming IETF and IAB appointments [BCP 10], the technical work of the
>    Internet Research Task Force (IRTF) [BCP 8], or to ISOC's membership in
> or
>    support of other organizations.

But since we have nice tidy BCP references, it seems like that might be a
useful thing to do.

> Section 4.2
> >
> >    o  The Board of Directors of the IETF LLC - formally a multi-member
> >       "manager" of the IETF LLC on behalf of ISOC - assumes the
> >       oversight responsibilities of the IAOC.
> >
> > I'm not sure whether there's any ambiguity about whether "of" means
> > "over" or "from", to a reader who doesn't already know that it means
> > "from".
> >
> >
> Is this just saying you think it reads better if s/of the IAOC/from the
> IAOC/ ?

Yes.  But this change is entirely at the document editor's discretion (not
mine), IMO.

> 
> > Section 6.2
> >
> >    As noted above, a maximum of two Directors may be appointed by the
> >    IETF LLC Board.  They can obviously choose to appoint none, one, or
> >    two.  These appointments need not be on an exceptional basis, but
> >    rather be routine, and may occur at any time of the year since it is
> >    on an as-needed basis.
> >
> > nit: I think there's a word missing here, maybe in "can rather be routine".
> > There also seems to be a singular/plural mismatch between "these" and
> > "it".
> >
> 
> How about: s/rather be routine/can be routine/ ?

Sure.

> 
> >
> >    The appointment of a Board-appointed Director requires a two-thirds
> >    majority vote of the Directors then in office, and the appointee
> >    shall take office immediately upon appointment.  [...]
> >
> > Upon appointment, or upon appointment *and confirmation*?
> >
> >
> Good catch, will fix by making that addition:
> 
> https://github.com/IASA2/draft-ietf-iasa2-struct/issues/100
> 
> >
> >    The Board may decide on a case-by-case basis how long each term shall
> >    be, factoring in the restriction for consecutive terms in
> >    Section 6.4.
> >
> > Section 6.5 also seems relevant.
> >
> >
> This is a typo; it should point to 6.5, will change.
> 
> https://github.com/IASA2/draft-ietf-iasa2-struct/issues/101
> 
> 
> 
> > Section 6.10
> >
> >                                      If a quorum is not present at any
> >    meeting of the Board, the Directors present may adjourn the meeting
> >    from time to time, without notice other than announcement at the
> >    meeting, until a quorum is present.  [...]
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand the purpose of "from time to time" in this
> > sentence.  (Barry seems to have covered this already, though.)
> >
> 
> Yes, Barry proposed a fix that would deal with this, will update in the
> next version:
> 
> https://github.com/IASA2/draft-ietf-iasa2-struct/issues/102

Yup, looks good.

-Ben

> 
> > Section 7.7
> >
> >    The IETF LLC exists to support the IETF, IAB, and IRTF.  Therefore,
> >    the IETF LLC's funding and all revenues, in-kind contributions, and
> >    other income that comprise that funding shall be used solely to
> >    support activities related to the IETF, IAB, IRTF, and RFC Editor,
> >    and for no other purposes.
> >
> > Why are the lists in the first and second sentences different?
> >
> 
> Because the RFC Editor is contracted through the IAB, but that somewhere in
> the WG discussion it felt important to call out in the second list. I don't
> think we can just add the RFC Editor to the first list... but we could do
> something like this: "The IETF LLC exists to support the IETF, IRTF, and
> IAB (through which the RFC Editor receives support)."
> 
> best, Joe
> 
> -- 
> Joseph Lorenzo Hall
> Chief Technologist, Center for Democracy & Technology [https://www.cdt.org]
> 1401 K ST NW STE 200, Washington DC 20005-3497
> e: [e-mail], p: 202.407.8825, pgp: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
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