[Iasa20] Barry Leiba's Yes on draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis-08: (with COMMENT)

Barry Leiba via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> Tue, 09 July 2019 19:22 UTC

Return-Path: <noreply@ietf.org>
X-Original-To: iasa20@ietf.org
Delivered-To: iasa20@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0E812028B; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 12:22:55 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
From: Barry Leiba via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
To: "The IESG" <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis@ietf.org, Jon Peterson <jon.peterson@team.neustar>, iasa2-chairs@ietf.org, jon.peterson@team.neustar, iasa20@ietf.org
X-Test-IDTracker: no
X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.3
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Message-ID: <156270017504.15912.9339536252892302866.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 12:22:55 -0700
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iasa20/lJB5K7BTySttQRbdWigpbMj-EPU>
Subject: [Iasa20] Barry Leiba's Yes on draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis-08: (with COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: iasa20@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
List-Id: =?iso-8859-1?q?Discussions_relating_to_reorganising_the_IETF_administrative_structures_in_the_so_called_=93IASA_2=2E0=94_project=2E?= <iasa20.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/iasa20>, <mailto:iasa20-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/iasa20/>
List-Post: <mailto:iasa20@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:iasa20-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iasa20>, <mailto:iasa20-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 19:22:55 -0000

Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis-08: Yes

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The following discussion has happened (and thanks to all for having it).  It's
clear now what the exception referred to is, and I have below, a suggested fix
to the text in Section 3.8, which is unclear enough to cause problems if the
issue comes up:

— Section 3.8 —

   However, the following exception is permitted in the case where the
   candidate for an open position is currently a sitting member of the
   IAB.  It is consistent with these rules for the announcements of a
   resignation of a sitting member of the IAB and of the confirmed
   candidate for the mid-term vacancy created by that sitting member on
   the IAB to all occur at the same time as long as the actual sequence
   of events that occurred did so in the following order:

   1.  The NomCom completes the advice and consent process for the open
       position being filled by the candidate currently sitting on the
       IAB.

   2.  The newly confirmed candidate resigns from their current position
       on the IAB.

   3.  The IAB Chair (or the Managing Director, IETF Secretariat, if no
       Chair has been named or the vacancy was created via the departure
       of the IAB Chair) informs the NomCom of the mid-term vacancy.

   4.  The NomCom acts on the request to fill the mid-term vacancy.

I didn’t understand what this is saying, and, therefore, didn’t understand how
it’s possible to comply with it, when the announcement of an open position is
required.  I now understand that the exception is that the NomCom is allowed
*not* to explicitly announce a vacancy on the IAB that's created by moving an
IAB member to another body, because we assume that anyone who wants an IAB
position has already put her name into the original pool.  Given that (and I
have confirmed it with meeting minutes from the discussion that led to RFC 3777
and from a chat with the editor of 3777), I would very much like to see the
following clarification:

OLD
   However, the following exception is permitted in the case where the
   candidate for an open position is currently a sitting member of the
   IAB.
NEW
   However, an exception is permitted in the case where the
   candidate for an open position is currently a sitting member of the
   IAB.  Because there is already a pool of candidates for a set of IAB
   positions, the NomCom does not a need to inform the community
   explicitly that one more position is becoming available, so par of the
   process can overlap.
END

If the decision is to not add that clarification, but to deal with it in an
upcoming process revision, this comment will serve as documentation that we can
point to in case the issue should come up.

===================================

There are a lot of comments here, but they're basically all editorial.  Some of
them relate to the IASA2 changes, and I’ve tried to separate those out; please
pay particular attention to them.

General: While it’s not necessary, it would be helpful if the many places that
say “elsewhere in this document” had internal section-number citations instead.

*********************************
*** Begin IASA2-related edits ***

This section of edits directly relates to the changes made for IASA2.

— Abstract —
The abstract says that it’s “based on RFC3777 and RFC7437”, but 3777 was
obsoleted by 7437.  Does it really make sense to mention 3777 in the Abstract? 
I think it isn’t, and suggest:

OLD
   This document
   is based on RFC3777 and RFC7437 and has been updated to reflect the
   changes introduced by IASA 2.0.
NEW
   This document
   is based on and replaces RFC7437, and has been updated to reflect
   the changes introduced by IASA 2.0.
END

— Introduction —
Here I think it’s worth mentioning 3777 as part of the history, but “updates”
isn’t strong enough for clarity.  Perhaps:

OLD
   This document is a revision of [RFC7437] that updates it to be
   consistent with the IASA 2.0 changes.  RFC 7437 was based on
   [RFC3777] that consolidated and updated other RFCs that updated that
   document into a single specification.  The result is a complete
   specification of the process by which members of the Internet
   Architecture Board (IAB) and Internet Engineering Steering Group
   (IESG), some Trustees of the IETF Trust, and some Directors of the
   IETF Administration LLC (IETF LLC), are selected, confirmed, and
   recalled.
NEW
   This document is a revision of [RFC7437] that updates and replaces
   it, and is consistent with the IASA 2.0 changes.  RFC 7437 was based
   on [RFC3777] and its updates, and consolidated and updated the process
   into a single specification at that time.  This document is now the
   sole and complete specification of the process by which members of the
   Internet Architecture Board (IAB) and Internet Engineering Steering Group
   (IESG), some Trustees of the IETF Trust, and some Directors of the
   IETF Administration LLC (IETF LLC), are selected, confirmed, and
   recalled.
END

Does that work?

We use “IETF LLC Director” (3 times) and “IETF LLC Board Director” (6 times)
interchangeably; we should pick one and use it consistently.

— Section 3.2 —

   The principal functions of the NomCom are to review each open IESG,
   IAB, IETF Trust, and IETF LLC Board position and to nominate either
   its incumbent or a superior candidate.

As “nominee” is defined as someone being considered by the NomCom, and
“candidate” is the one selected, this should say “and to select”, not “and to
nominate”.

Similarly for “candidate that is nominated” in the fourth paragraph and “to
which he or she is nominated” in the last paragraph. (Note that “nominated”
*is* correct in the fifth paragraph.)

— Section 3.3 —

   or if a member or Director unexpectedly resigns.

“if a member, a Director, or a Trustee” (and similarly in the middle of Section
3.4)

— Section 3.4 —

   Confirmed IETF LLC Board Director candidates are expected to serve at
   least a three-year term, except if a nominating or selection body
   decides to use a shorter term to allow for initial staggered
   appointments.

Given that the initial staggered appointments have already been made, the
“except” part seems overtaken by events.  Does it really make sense to publish
that now, especially as the reference in the following sentence covers that
situation?  (And similarly for the next paragraph about Trustees.)

For all three paragraphs, “a three year term” doesn’t match “candidates” in
number.  I suggest making them both singular, so “A confirmed IESG or IAB
candidate is expected to serve at least a two-year term.”  And similarly for
the other two.  Alternatively, we could change “a two-year term” to “two-year
terms”, making them both plural.

In both the Director and Trustee paragraphs, “additional guidance on terms
length” should say “term length”.

   The term of a confirmed candidate selected according to the mid-term
   vacancy rules may be less than a full term (two years for IESG and
   IAB, three years for the IETF Trust and IETF LLC), as stated
   elsewhere in this document.

Why repeat the term length here?  I would remove the parenthesized bit.

— Section 3.5 —

   4.  The term of the confirmed candidate will be either:

       A.  the remainder of the term of the open position if that
           remainder is not less than one year or

       B.  the remainder of the term of the open position plus the next
           two-year term if that remainder is less than one year.

This is clearly written for the IAB and IESG, and hasn’t been changed to
account for Directors and Trustees.

— Section 3.7.3 —

   The sitting IESG members review the IETF Trust Trustee Candidates.

There should be only one (as with the Board candidate in the next paragraph),
and it shouldn’t be capitalized.

— Sections 7.1.1 and 7.1.2 —
These sections come from the merging of RFC 7776 into 7437, and are
unnecessarily confusing. The way they are written makes it sound as if a Recall
Committee Chair is appointed only for an Ombudsteam-initiated recall and not in
the case of a community petition.  Here’s what I suggest: As Section 7.1
already says that recalls initiated by the Ombudsteam follow 7776, there’s no
need to say it again in 7.1.2.  So how about this?:

OLD
   The Ombudsteam process allows the Ombudsteam to form a recall
   petition on its own without requiring 20 signatories from the
   community.  As defined in [RFC7776], the petition and its signatories
   (the Ombudsteam) shall be announced to the IETF community, and a
   Recall Committee Chair shall be appointed to complete the Recall
   Committee process.  It is expected that the Recall Committee will
   receive a briefing from the Ombudsteam explaining why recall is
   considered an appropriate remedy.
NEW
   The Ombudsteam process allows the Ombudsteam to form a recall
   petition on its own without requiring 20 signatories from the
   community.  The petition and its signatories (the Ombudsteam)
   shall be announced to the IETF community, as with a community
   petition, and it is expected that the Recall Committee (see
   below) will receive a briefing from the Ombudsteam explaining
   why recall is considered an appropriate remedy.
END

Then we let 7.2 et seq explain the common parts of the recall process,
including appointment of the Recall Committee Chair.

— Appendix C —

   4.  There are no term limits explicitly because the issue of
       continuity versus turnover should be evaluated each year
       according to the expectations of the IETF community, as it is
       understood by each NomCom.

Make it, “There are no term limits for the IAB and IESG explicitly….”  There
are now term limits for Directors and Trustees.

— Appendix D —

OLD
   3.   The Chair contacts the IESG, IAB, and Internet Society Board of
        Trustees and requests a liaison.
NEW
   3.   The Chair contacts the IESG, IAB, Internet Society Board of
        Trustees, IETF Trust, and IETF LLC and requests a liaison from
        each.
END

*** End IASA2-related edits ***
*******************************

These comments relate to original text or are otherwise not important for the
IASA2 changes.

I do wish we could avoid “IETF Trust Trustees”, but that ship has
<trike>sunk</strike> sailed.

— Section 3.1 (and 4.6 and 5.6) —

Nit: The word “comprised” is correctly used as “the whole comprises its parts”,
and is used correctly in Section 4.3.  It’s used in the document three times
incorrectly (“the whole is comprised of its parts”, for which the correct word
is “composed”).  Please change the three instances of “is comprised of” either
to “is composed of” or “comprises” (I prefer the latter).

— Section 3.4 —

   For confirmed candidates of the IESG, the terms begin no later than
   when the currently sitting members' terms end on the last day of the
   meeting.  A term may begin or end no sooner than the first day of the
   meeting and no later than the last day of the meeting as determined

This seems like an editing error.  I would merge the two sentences:

NEW
   For the IESG, the term of the sitting member ends and the term of the
   confirmed candidate begins no sooner than the first day of the meeting
   and no later than the last day of the meeting as determined
END

   For candidates confirmed under the mid-term vacancy rules, the term
   begins as soon as possible after the confirmation.

I would say “as soon as practicable”.  It’s quite possible that it would be
*possible* to begin a term, but there could be reasons to wait a bit.

— Section 3.5 —

   1.  When there is only one official NomCom, the body with the mid-
       term vacancy relegates the responsibility to fill the vacancy

While “relegates” *can* mean “delegates”, the general sense of “relegate” is
negative ("We relegated it to the trash pile.").  Better to use “delegates”, or
simply “gives”.  (Twice in this paragraph and once in Section 4.2.)

— Section 3.6 —

   The NomCom and confirming body members will be exposed to
   confidential information as a result of their deliberations, their
   interactions with those they consult, and from those who provide
   requested supporting information.

The list is not parallel (the third item doesn’t work).

NEW
   The NomCom and confirming body members will be exposed to
   confidential information as a result of their deliberations and
   their interactions with those they consult, and from those who
   provide requested supporting information.
END

   The NomCom
   may disclose a list of names of nominees who are willing to be
   considered for positions under review to the community

“under review to the community” reads funny.  I would move “to the community”
to be after “list of names”.

— Section 3.7.3 —

   The confirming bodies conduct their review using all information

Their “reviews”, plural.

   and the confirming bodies' interpretation

The bodies’ “interpretations”, plural.

   the NomCom must select alternate candidates for the rejected
   candidates.

“alternative” candidates.

— Section 4.1 —

   The completion of the selection and organization process is due at
   least one month prior to the Third IETF.  This ensures the NomCom is
   fully operational and available for interviews and consultation
   during the Third IETF.

As selection is normally done prior to the *Second* IETF now, is it worth
saying that (not requiring it; the requirement as stated is fine)?  Something
like, “In practice, the selection process is generally completed prior to the
Second IETF, so that the Second IETF can be used for organization.”  I think
it’s especially important to say this because otherwise it seems like the old
and new NomComs are only required to overlap by one month, and Section 4.2 says
they’re meant to overlap for “approximately three months”.

— Section 4.2 —

   When the prior year's NomCom is filling a mid-term vacancy during the
   period of time that the terms overlap, the NomCom operate
   independently.

“NomComs”, plural.

— Section 4.6 —

   Any such appointment must be temporary and does not absolve the Chair
   of any or all responsibility for ensuring the NomCom completes its
   assigned duties in a timely fashion.

Then where does it say how to permanently replace a NomCom Chair who really
does have to leave permanently (say, death or incapacity, unexpected family
issues, or even just is no longer willing to do it)?

— Section 4.8 —
This section doesn’t say anything about liaison appointment from the ISOC BoT;
it probably should.

— Section 4.10 —

   The prior year's Chair may select a designee from a pool composed of
   the voting volunteers of the prior year's committee and all prior
   Chairs if the Chair is unavailable.  If the prior year's Chair is
   unavailable or is unable or unwilling to make such a designation in a
   timely fashion, the Chair of the current year's committee may select
   a designee in consultation with the Internet Society President.

For clarity, “if the prior year’s Chair is unavailable,” because there are two
Chairs under discussion.

Why is it that the prior year’s Chair can pick someone else on her own, but the
current Chair has to consult with the ISOC President to do the same thing? —
Section 4.14 —

   Members of the IETF community must have attended at least three of
   the last five IETF meetings in order to volunteer.

I hesitate to say this, given other ongoing discussions, but “attended at least
three of the last five IETF meetings in person in order to volunteer” has to be
clear here, especially as we now have formal registration for remote
participants.

   Volunteers must provide their full name, email address, and primary
   company or organization affiliation (if any) when volunteering.

Hm, number-agreement problem (plural volunteers and singular name, etc.), but
it’s sticky to fix it and keep it gender-free.  We could go with the custom of
using “their” as gender-free singular and say, “Each volunteer must provide
their full name….”  Or we could make it all plural (which I think I like a tad
better):

NEW
   Volunteers must provide their full names, email addresses, and
   primary company or organization affiliations (if any) when
   volunteering.
END

— Section 4.16 —

   The pool of volunteers must be enumerated or otherwise indicated
   according to the needs of the selection method to be used.

Maybe “otherwise annotated”?  “Indicated” doesn’t seem like the right word.

— Section 4.17 —

   the same affiliation, then the volunteer should notify the Chair who
   will determine the appropriate action.

Comma before “who”, please.

   During at least the one week challenge period, the Chair must contact

What does that mean?  Is it meant to mean “during the challenge period, which
is a least one week”?  If so, just say “During the challenge period,” as the
one week length has already been stated. If it means something else, what?

— Section 4.18 —

   The Chair works with the members of the committee to organize itself
   in preparation for completing its assigned duties.

I don’t think “itself” works here.  I’d say, “The Chair works with the NomCom
members to organize the committee….”

— Section 5.15 —

   Rejected nominees, who consented to their nomination, and rejected
   candidates must be notified prior to announcing the confirmed
   candidates.

The comma before “who” shouldn’t be there.

— Section 6 —

   3.  The arbiter investigates the issue making every reasonable effort
       to understand both sides of the issue.

This is better with a comma before “making”.

— Section 7 —

   It applies to IESG and IAB Members, the NomCom appointed IETF Trust
   Trustees, and the NomCom appointed IETF LLC Directors.

“NomCom-appointed” should be hyphenated both times, and also twice in Section
7.1.

— Section 7.3 —
More number disagreement (plural subject and “a member”).

NEW
   The recall committee is created according to the same rules as is the
   NomCom, with the qualification that both the person being investigated
   and the parties requesting the recall must not be involved in the recall
   committee in any capacity.
END

— Section 7.7 —
It would be worth adding, for absolute clarity, “The Recall Committee does not
itself fill the open position.”