Re: [Icar] an early review experiment

Melinda Shore <mshore@cisco.com> Wed, 19 May 2004 19:40 UTC

Received: from optimus.ietf.org (iesg.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06916 for <icar-archive@odin.ietf.org>; Wed, 19 May 2004 15:40:28 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BQWlH-0007kD-MK for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 15:29:55 -0400
Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i4JJTtIk029763 for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 15:29:55 -0400
Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BQW9f-0003Mo-0l for icar-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 14:51:03 -0400
Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA00333 for <icar-web-archive@ietf.org>; Wed, 19 May 2004 14:50:59 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BQW9c-0000hE-6d for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 14:51:00 -0400
Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BQW8p-0000aF-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 14:50:12 -0400
Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BQW7s-0000QS-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 14:49:12 -0400
Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BQVn6-0006Oi-3M; Wed, 19 May 2004 14:27:44 -0400
Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BQSec-0002hf-LM for icar@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 11:06:46 -0400
Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18120 for <icar@ietf.org>; Wed, 19 May 2004 11:06:42 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BQSeZ-0004Nu-Ty for icar@ietf.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 11:06:44 -0400
Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BQSdd-0004IX-00 for icar@ietf.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 11:05:46 -0400
Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BQScg-0004Ai-00 for icar@ietf.org; Wed, 19 May 2004 11:04:46 -0400
Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 May 2004 07:11:42 +0000
Received: from mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com [171.71.163.17]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i4JF4DaP026406; Wed, 19 May 2004 08:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from cisco.com ([10.25.65.178]) by mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com (MOS 3.4.5-GR) with SMTP id AUG79675; Wed, 19 May 2004 08:04:12 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 11:04:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [Icar] an early review experiment
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553)
Cc: icar@ietf.org
To: mallman@icir.org
From: Melinda Shore <mshore@cisco.com>
In-Reply-To: <20040519144950.EB9D977AA5C@guns.icir.org>
Message-Id: <C6CEDAD9-A9A5-11D8-8468-000A95E35274@cisco.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: icar-admin@ietf.org
Errors-To: icar-admin@ietf.org
X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar>, <mailto:icar-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review <icar.ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:icar@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:icar-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar>, <mailto:icar-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Wednesday, May 19, 2004, at 10:49 AM, Mark Allman wrote:
>   + one end of the spectrum would be that ICAR-type comments must be
>     addressed before the document moves forward
>
>   + the other end of the space seems to me to be that the ICAR-type
>     reviews are just like any other review that comes in from a
>     community member (i.e., no special status)
>
>   + there may be middle ground

I'm in the middle ground.  It seems to me that what ICAR-type reviews
bring to the wg is external context and persective that isn't available
within the working group.  I wouldn't like to see working group
responsibility for the quality of their own product be shifted to non-
participants.  What I think we need is more checks as documents
progress, and while a working group needs to take review comments
very seriously, sometimes a reviewer is full of crap, too.  I don't
think it's the role of this working group (icar) to make fundamental
changes to the standardization process and responsibilities.  More
validity checks on working group documents earlier in the process: 
great.
Changing the process so that reviewers become responsible for working
group documents: not so great.  And giving reviewers what's essentially
veto power over documents gives them responsibility for those documents.

Melinda


_______________________________________________
Icar mailing list
Icar@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar