Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data
"Thompson, Jeff" <jefft0@remap.ucla.edu> Tue, 06 September 2016 16:01 UTC
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From: "Thompson, Jeff" <jefft0@remap.ucla.edu>
To: David Oran <daveoran@orandom.net>
Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data
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Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 15:48:58 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data
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> b) how does a forwarder decide where to forward the interest if (a) >above returns ³not found². The forwarder has to decide where to forward the interest to get a data packet which not only has a matching name, but has a signature that the consumer will trust (since it is the consumer who verifies the packet). In a future Internet with a billion producers, most of them mobile, there could be many packets floating around with a matching name, but only one with a signature that the consumer will trust. I had always assumed that this is why the consumer has to put something in the interest - not to tell the network where to find a data packet with a matching name (too easy), but where to find a producer who will cough up a data packet with a signature that the consumer will trust. - Jeff T On 2016/9/6, 7:53:27, "Icnrg-harmonization on behalf of David Oran" <icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org on behalf of daveoran@orandom.net> wrote: > >> On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Ravi Ravindran <ravi.ravindran@huawei.com> >>wrote: >> >> I agree with the distinction between link and locator, but in >>administered domains 'links' will most likely will be used as locators, >>as you have absolute knowledge of the cache/storage, or the attachment >>point of the device etc. In this case, links can be given priority over >>the names in the Interest packet, and avoid trying to route on both >>these names simultaneously. >> >This to me illustrates very well why the term ³locator² is really >problematic in the context of ICN. Let¹s get rid of it. >There are two related but separate functions: > >a) how does a forwarder match an interest to either a local application >or a cached copy of the data object. >b) how does a forwarder decide where to forward the interest if (a) above >returns ³not found². >Neither of these requires anything like a locator. > >A forwarder can use any information it has at its disposal to figure (b) >out. It could have a useful LPM entry in its FIB matching a prefix of the >name in the interest. It could consult an oracle. It could send the >Interest to the CIA (who knows where the data is). If could send the >interest to the NSA, who undoubtedly already has it. It could us a hint >in the Interest message (e.g. a Link). None of these is a ³locators². Or >perhaps they all are, in which case the term is equally usless. > > > >> Regards, >> Ravi >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alex Afanasyev [mailto:aa@cs.ucla.edu] >> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 11:12 PM >> To: Ravi Ravindran >> Cc: Lixia Zhang; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Marc.Mosko@parc.com >> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >> >> >>> On Sep 5, 2016, at 10:23 PM, Ravi Ravindran >>><ravi.ravindran@huawei.com> wrote: >>> >>> I¹m not sure if there is any disagreement about this that, there are >>>two types of names in ICN, one what application binds to, and managed >>>by the application providers, called identifiers. And the names that >>>are relevant to the network layer to identify networks, routers, border >>>nodes, hosts etc, managed by the infrastructure provider, hence >>>topological and can be used for routing, late binding etc, which we >>>call locators. >> >> I don't fully agree with the distinction. Some names will be managed >>by the operators. However, it does not mean that only those names can >>be used to forward Interests. While I cannot predict future for real, I >>can see that prefixes for the "popular data" (e.g., from google, amazon, >>netflix, etc.) will be reachable directly. >> >> If we still have routing system similar to what we have today (I'm >>leaving the door open here), then not-so-popular application data would >>need to be mapped to other names that can guide the interests. >> >>> Isn¹t the link defined in SNAMP paper same as locators ? >> >> I think this is a continuation of the discussion we had a few meetings >>back. There is similarity, but there is also semantical differences >>from what word "locator" implies: >> >> - (1) The link from SNAMP paper is a hint for the routers on where the >>data may be available. >> - (2) The link does not imply that interests must be forwarded to a >>specific "location" to retrieve data, e.g., data can be retrieved from >>without using the link or on the way(s) pointed by the link. >> - (3) The name in the link might not be even a "location", just a >>direction(s) or way(s) to follow to have a chance to meet the data. >>Here I would like to highlight the fact that some name prefixes would be >>announced from different places, i.e., the way(s) to meet the data is >>not pre-determined. >> >> -- >> Alex >> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Ravi >>> >>> From: Lixia Zhang [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu] >>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 5:14 PM >>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>> Cc: Marc.Mosko@parc.com; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>> >>> >>> On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Ravi Ravindran >>><ravi.ravindran@huawei.com> wrote: >>> >>> But one big difference here with CCNx is that, in NDN is that all >>>objects are named. >>> >>> Yes, hence the name of the architecture: named data networking :-) >>> >>> >>> I think we should reconsider this notion of nameless objects in CCNx, >>>and define a way to carry locator names in the Interest messages. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Ravi >>> >>> To me the so called "locator" is another misconception. >>> >>> Lixia >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Icnrg-harmonization >>>[mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of >>>Marc.Mosko@parc.com >>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:24 AM >>> To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>> >>> There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use of >>>nameless objects, but I¹d like to point out that one can do essentially >>>the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were to adopt >>>the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this way too >>>(though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the implicit >>>digest). >>> >>> This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification and >>>the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, >>>please let me know. >>> >>> The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. Therefore, I >>>can create a Data object with an empty name. In an Interest, I can put >>>one NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max >>>SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects in the >>>Interest for routing. >>> >>> My understanding of NDN is that because the >>>ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will >>>forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object having 0 name >>>components will have a FullName of only its >>>ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the >>>Interest. >>> >>> I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were going >>>after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by >>>feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a >>>Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 >>>component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 >>>and used Link routing). >>> >>> Marc >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization > >_______________________________________________ >Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization
- [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Marc.Mosko
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Ravi Ravindran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Marc.Mosko
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Ravi Ravindran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Lixia Zhang
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Lixia Zhang
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Marc.Mosko
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data GQ Wang
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Alex Afanasyev
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Marc.Mosko
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Alex Afanasyev
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Ravi Ravindran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Alex Afanasyev
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Ravi Ravindran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data David Oran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thompson, Jeff
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Ravi Ravindran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data David Oran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Ravi Ravindran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data David Oran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Ravi Ravindran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Alex Afanasyev
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Ravi Ravindran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data David Oran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Ravi Ravindran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data David Oran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Ravi Ravindran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Marc.Mosko
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Cedric Westphal
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Marc.Mosko
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Ravi Ravindran
- Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data GQ Wang