Re: [icnrg] Discussions at mboned
Luca Muscariello <muscariello@ieee.org> Fri, 27 March 2020 10:55 UTC
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From: Luca Muscariello <muscariello@ieee.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 11:55:13 +0100
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To: Matthias Waehlisch <m.waehlisch@fu-berlin.de>
Cc: ICNRG <icnrg@irtf.org>
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Subject: Re: [icnrg] Discussions at mboned
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Join and leave a multicast group is available in chrome since a lot of time, at least five years. The challenge is not reaching the browser for multicast per se. There are though several outstanding challenges both at the network and application layer. The former are the well known problems for multicast for in terms of data plane and control plane, including scaling and management. The latter are more complex in my opinion. Mapping rate adaption, multiple quality layers, both for ABR but also simulcast for real-time is not simple and AFAIK an ill defined problem. Multiple multicast trees? How do you jump from one tree to another? Is it stable? Is it unstable? Can it be stabilized? These solutions manage losses using FEC and do not really manage congestion otherwise you have to fall back to unicast to recover losses. How do you go through WiFi as 80% of the desktops are using WiFi? The answer cannot be to continue on the wireless hop using multicast in 802.11 as it is ever more complex than the previous problem. So multicast is not e2e. Akamai has done HTTP over IP multicast since several years ago from the Akamai Telco CDN product to the setup box. The Telco CDN product was called Aura Lumen and the HTTP mapping (request/reply)is proprietary and patented by Akamai. Last time I checked this what I was at Orange only HTTP replies where send in multicast. Non multicast enabled clients could use AMT to a GW, the Home GW to receive unicast. When we have mapped HTTP over hICN we had to solve a similar problem but in a different way. In the thread you shared Matthias, they discussed about real-time as well for on-line meetings. I'm sure old farts in this list may remember VIC, VAT and WB on MBONE, the first video-conference tool with audio/video and a white board, developed at Berkeley by Van Jacobson. https://ee.lbl.gov/vat We have shown a demo of Jitsi over hICN at one ICNRG meeting, both media bridge and stand alone client. It fits very well to simulcast and rate adaptation as again most clients connect via WiFi. Bonus, if the client is multi-homed (WiFi + Cellular) it continues to work. I do not see this coming with multicast. Compared to multicast, in hICN there is no need to tunnel multicast to unicast as the distribution adapts to the workload. Network-wise no need to have a different control plane unicast/multicast and no need to maintain an independent multicast network, because a single hICN node can be transparelty installed in a place where there is congestion to alleviate: GW, PoPs, transit, colo, branches in addition to the end-points. Congestion control also looks better as flow-balance to the hICN box is simpler to manage. BTW it is open source https://wiki.fd.io/view/HICN Luca On Fri, Mar 27, 2020 at 9:58 AM Matthias Waehlisch <m.waehlisch@fu-berlin.de> wrote: > > Interesting discussions at MBONE Deployment WG: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mboned/G13mUJTyG7TQ_tSnscB1SWEsOjw/ > > not surprising, some relate to challenges in ICN, e.g., dynamic state > management. > > .... didn't know that Akamai is working on multicast to the browser. why > not ICN to the browser ;). > > > > cheers > matthias > > > -- > Matthias Waehlisch > .. Freie Universitaet Berlin, Computer Science > ... http://www.cs.fu-berlin.de/~waehl > > _______________________________________________ > icnrg mailing list > icnrg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg >
- [icnrg] Discussions at mboned Matthias Waehlisch
- Re: [icnrg] Discussions at mboned Milheiro Mendes, Paulo Jorge
- Re: [icnrg] Discussions at mboned Luca Muscariello