Re: [icnrg] [EXT][Nfd-dev] about draft-irtf-icnrg-IPOC

Luca Muscariello <> Thu, 23 July 2020 12:54 UTC

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From: Luca Muscariello <>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:54:05 +0200
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To: Greg White <>
Cc: Junxiao Shi <>, "Shannigrahi, Susmit" <>, "<>" <>, ICNRG <>, Lixia Zhang <>
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Subject: Re: [icnrg] [EXT][Nfd-dev] about draft-irtf-icnrg-IPOC
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I think the major issue is the change of protocol semantics caused by IPoC.
Marc Mosko (et al. I guess) has done really good work to make interest
payload possible (within boundaries) which has never had shared consensus
This is why it is not in NDN.

RFC8569 should be carefully read, including security considerations.  I
do not want to use interest payload unless there is *a-very-good-reason*.
I would use it for datagram/stateless messaging only, or like NDN.

The approach that I prefer from a theoretical and practical point of view
to enable non-icn-aware-apps, is L4 proxyfication.
Dave Oran's (best)paper at icn2016 should be read.
L4 proxy, IMO, maintains many of the incentives to deploy, which I
mentioned in my previous emails on this topic.

It works for NDN, CCNx and also hICN and doesn't push data in interests.
Many good properties provided by ICN are maintained.
Of course, namespace optimization goes away but this is where ICN must go
native in the app.

IMO, the way IPoC makes use of Interest payload is like walking the


On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 12:58 AM Greg White <> wrote:

> It sounds like the practical consequences of including the IP packet in an
> NDN interest may not be that large. But that doing so violates principles
> of usage considered important by several members of the NDN community.
> In my earlier response
> <>
> to Luca on this subject, I suggested that we add some text in Section 4.1
> <> to
> make it clear that in order for IPoC to work with NDN, some changes to
> the current NDN forwarder behavior would be needed.  It looks like that
> won’t be sufficient.
> How to move forward?
> One option would be to eliminate all mentions of NDN in the IPoC draft.
> The protocol (as written) then becomes a CCNx-specific one.
> That said, if a future implementor decides to implement IPoC on NDN, and
> uses the AppParameters field to encapsulate the IP packet, is there a
> mechanism to prevent them from doing so?  If not, perhaps a better choice
> would be to include in Section 4.1 a few sentences that discuss the
> situation with the current NDN protocol definition, and the implications of
> using AppParameters.
> As has been said previously, IPoC is intended as a transition technology,
> and it could be one of many that eventually get designed to handle various
> transition scenarios (just like there have been many IPv4-to-IPv6
> transition technologies).  So, a future protocol could be designed that
> presumes both endpoints have routable prefixes and thus utilizes the
> traditional NDN pull in both directions.  IPoC itself could also be updated
> in the future to make use of mechanisms like the Reflexive Interest
> <>
> (if that is adopted).
> -Greg
> *From: *Junxiao Shi <>
> *Date: *Monday, July 20, 2020 at 9:01 PM
> *To: *"Shannigrahi, Susmit" <>
> *Cc: *"<>" <>du>, ICNRG <
>>gt;, Greg White <>om>, Lixia Zhang <
> *Subject: *Re: [EXT][Nfd-dev] about draft-irtf-icnrg-IPOC
> Hi Susmit
> But do we have to buffer the payload in the PIT? I know this is how this
> is done in NFD - but what do we lose if we throw away the payload (or
> application parameters) before populating the intermediate PITs? This might
> require changes in the forwarding pipeline.
> If the forwarder doesn't store the whole Interest, its strategy cannot
> retransmit the Interest except when processing an Interest or a Nack.
> Also, a recent protocol clarification forces the forwarder to store the
> entire Interest packet if it supports both PIT aggregation and Nack
> returning.
> note-16 requires the forwarder
> to include the original Interest packet in a Nack returned to downstream.
> To satisfy this requirement, the forwarder has to separately store the last
> Interest from each downstream node. Sending the Nack from upstream to
> downstream would not work, because the Interest enclosed in an upstream
> Nack reflects the original Interest from at most one downstream node, while
> other downstream nodes may have sent a different set of InterestLifetime,
> HopLimit, as well as unrecognized non-critical fields.
> NDN-Lite could get away with storing only the name and CanBePrefix flag
> because it does not support Nack returning. The NDN protocol (
> chapter 3) defines Nack returning to
> be optional, so this is a valid implementation choice, at the expense of
> slower link failure recovery.
> Yours, Junxiao
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