Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type
Atul Tulshibagwale <atultulshi@google.com> Tue, 14 July 2020 23:31 UTC
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From: Atul Tulshibagwale <atultulshi@google.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 16:31:40 -0700
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To: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, Openid-specs-risc <openid-specs-risc@lists.openid.net>
Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Chris Phillips <Chris.Phillips@canarie.ca>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type
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+Openid-specs-risc <openid-specs-risc@lists.openid.net> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 4:30 PM Atul Tulshibagwale <atultulshi@google.com> wrote: > IMO if we have a common enough use-case that requires a specific type to > be defined, then we should define that type in the spec rather than rely on > an interpretation of the "iss-sub" type, since that interpretation can > cause incompatibilities. > > In this specific case however I feel that the use cases outlined in my > previous email can be achieved (with limitations) using the durable subject > types such as email. I'd like the members of the SSE working group to chime > in (since that is where this got added), or we can drop the SAML subject > identifier type. > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 4:09 PM Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com> > wrote: > >> + 1 to what Yaron is saying here. I'd include also the "iss-sub" subject >> identifier type >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-subject-identifiers-05#section-3.4 >> as already having semantics covering what's described in the ID Token >> Claims Subject Identifier Type in the RISC document referenced. And all >> those things represent a durable subject rather than a session, which >> strikes me as appropriate for a document that describes identifying >> subjects. A SAML assertion ID, however, which is an identifier of an XML >> document that is only indirectly related to a session by an association >> that likely isn't maintained, does not seem appropriate as a "subject >> identifier". >> >> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 4:01 PM Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Atul, >>> >>> >>> >>> The ID Token subject type, as described in the document you are >>> referencing, does not add any semantics, compared to a “phone number” or >>> “email” subject type. So I don’t see the value in adding it. >>> >>> >>> >>> In addition, it does not, actually, describe an ID Token. In fact the >>> text is very clear that it describes a “subject” (a durable entity) rather >>> than a session, and does it by citing various claims included in the ID >>> token. So as a subject identifier type, it is not at all equivalent to a >>> SAML assertion. >>> >>> >>> >>> As to the SAML Assertion subject type, I think these use cases could be >>> addressed by adding information to the event. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Yaron >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *Atul Tulshibagwale <atultulshi@google.com> >>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 23:26 >>> *To: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> >>> *Cc: *Chris Phillips <Chris.Phillips@canarie.ca>, "id-event@ietf.org" < >>> id-event@ietf.org> >>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Yaron, >>> >>> There are a few SSE use cases where the events are about a specific >>> single sign-on session. You're right that this should not be limited to >>> SAML. The RISC profile of SETs (based on which we are doing the SSE work) >>> had the ID Token subject identifier type, which for some reason is missing >>> in this spec (I did not realize until now). The specific events that need >>> to refer to sessions are: >>> >>> - Identity provider context change: The conditions under which a >>> SAML assertion or OIDC token was generated are no longer valid. This can be >>> due to various things, including a password change. >>> - Session property change: A session has been determined to have >>> been compromised >>> - Revocation: The issuer of the single sign-on SAML assertion or ID >>> Token needs to be revoke >>> >>> I can also add the ID Token claim from the RISC profile >>> <https://bitbucket.org/openid/risc/src/master/openid-risc-profile-1_0.txt#lines-250> >>> to my pull request. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Atul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 12:32 PM Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I need a lot more context here. So far, subject IDs have denoted durable >>> entities, such as email addresses, phone numbers, account. This is adding a >>> subject ID that denotes an ephemeral entity, basically similar to a session >>> ID. This looks weird from an architectural point of view, and also begs the >>> question, why specifically SAML and not other session types. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Yaron >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Atul >>> Tulshibagwale <atultulshi=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> >>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 00:14 >>> *To: *Chris Phillips <Chris.Phillips@canarie.ca> >>> *Cc: *"id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org> >>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type >>> >>> >>> >>> Just clarifying the proposal as it stands today (before incorporating >>> Chris's input): >>> >>> The following section should be added in the "Subject Identifier Types" >>> section: >>> >>> 4.9. SAML Subject Identifier Type >>> >>> The SAML [SAML.REF] Subject Identifier Type describes a subject by >>> the assertion identifier in the SAML assertion that was used to >>> convey the subject's information to the Receiver. Subject >>> Identifiers of this type MUST contain an ` assertion_id"claim. The >>> value of this claim is a string that is equal to the Assertion >>> Identifier in the SAML assertion. The SAML Subject Identifier Type >>> is identified by the name "saml`. >>> >>> Below is a non-normative example Subject Identifier for the SAML >>> Subject Identifier Type: >>> >>> { >>> "subject_type": "saml", >>> "assertion_id": "_f551d88963ab4e3decb7cfe8f4dcc3f5", >>> } >>> >>> Figure 8: Example: Subject Identifier for SAML Subject Identifier >>> Type. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 1:22 PM Atul Tulshibagwale < >>> atultulshi@google.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Chris, >>> >>> I was proposing using the "assertion id" (SAML Core >>> <http://docs.oasis-open.org/security/saml/v2.0/saml-core-2.0-os.pdf> >>> spec, line 553) in the proposal, not the "subject-id" as defined in SAML >>> (spec section 3.3). The main reason was to be able to refer to a session >>> that was established using a specific assertion. If it's useful, we could >>> perhaps extend the SAML subject identifier type in this spec to include >>> either the assertion_id or the subject_id claim. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Atul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 10:30 AM Chris Phillips < >>> Chris.Phillips@canarie.ca> wrote: >>> >>> Hi. >>> >>> Quiet lurker observing.. >>> >>> Thanks for consider the SAML elements.. >>> >>> >>> >>> Atul, are you referring to the actual session identifier that someone >>> may have where the Subject-Id was exchanged OR the actual Subject-id itself >>> in your reference in the proposal with the github link? >>> >>> >>> >>> I’m trying to square what I see on the git delta on line 294-296 in >>> https://github..com/richanna/secevent/pull/1/commits/b20b6692eb50628927476ca78f9be077ace88994 >>> <https://github.com/richanna/secevent/pull/1/commits/b20b6692eb50628927476ca78f9be077ace88994> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> And a Subject-id as shown in the example in 3.3.3 here: >>> https://docs.oasis-open.org/security/saml-subject-id-attr/v1.0/cs01/saml-subject-id-attr-v1.0-cs01.html#_Toc536097229 >>> <https://docs.oasis-open.org/security/saml-subject-id-attr/v1.0/cs01/saml-subject-id-attr-v1..0-cs01..html#_Toc536097229> >>> >>> >>> >>> What you offered in the example is not a Subject-id per the OASIS SAML >>> spec as written in section 3.3.1 >>> >>> >>> >>> Am I mis-interpreting something? >>> >>> >>> >>> C >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Atul >>> Tulshibagwale <atultulshi=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> >>> *Date: *Monday, July 13, 2020 at 12:17 PM >>> *To: *"id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org> >>> *Subject: *[Id-event] SAML subject identifier type >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Based on the discussions in the SSE working group within the OpenID >>> Foundation, we would like to propose that the subject identifier >>> specification include a SAML subject identifier type. This is so that >>> sessions established across peers using SAML may be identified in events >>> that include the subject identifier. >>> >>> >>> >>> A SAML subject identifier has only one claim within it, the assertion >>> id of the SAML assertion used to establish the single sign-on session. >>> >>> >>> >>> This change is also included in my proposal here >>> <https://github.com/richanna/secevent/pull/1>. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Atul >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Id-event mailing list >>> Id-event@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Id-event mailing list >>> Id-event@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Id-event mailing list >>> Id-event@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event >>> >> >> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and >> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any >> review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. >> If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender >> immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments from >> your computer. Thank you.* > >
- [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Atul Tulshibagwale
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Chris Phillips
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Atul Tulshibagwale
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Atul Tulshibagwale
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Yaron Sheffer
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Atul Tulshibagwale
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Yaron Sheffer
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Brian Campbell
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Atul Tulshibagwale
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Atul Tulshibagwale
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Richard Backman, Annabelle
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Atul Tulshibagwale
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Richard Backman, Annabelle
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Mike Jones
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Dick Hardt
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Atul Tulshibagwale
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Brian Campbell
- Re: [Id-event] SAML subject identifier type Mike Jones