Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks (ideas)
Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> Mon, 02 October 2017 16:27 UTC
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From: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2017 09:27:32 -0700
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To: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
Cc: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "ideas@ietf.org" <ideas@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks (ideas)
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On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:18 AM, Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > Hi Christian, > > > > For applications like civil aviation Air Traffic Management (ATM), we have > > a case where it is desirable for Air Traffic Control (ATC) to be able to > track > > the mobile nodes (airplanes). > > > > We want for ATC to be able to track airplanes wherever they happen to > > be worldwide and connected over whatever available data links (satellite, > > cellular, WiMAX, VHF, etc.). The mobile nodes also benefit from being > > globally addressable at all times, since they are willing participants in > the > > global ATM service. > > > > So, we see ID/Loc architectures as a useful tool for supporting this > > safety-of-flight critical ATM service. Should it be noted that there are > > use cases where mobile node tracking is indeed desirable? > > > If the good guys are able to track mobile devices based on plain text address, doesn't that mean the bad guys will be able to do that also? Seems a little bit scary prospect to me in the context of aviation... Tom Thanks - Fred > > > > *From:* Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Christian > Huitema > *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 8:56 AM > *To:* The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; ideas@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks > (ideas) > > > > I just realized that I forget to copy this message to the IESG and IDEAS > mailing lists. Sorry. > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > *Subject: * > > Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks (ideas) > > *Date: * > > Sun, 1 Oct 2017 17:06:46 -0700 > > *From: * > > Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> <huitema@huitema.net> > > *To: * > > IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org> <ietf@ietf.org> > > > > On 9/29/2017 9:13 AM, The IESG wrote: > > > > > A new IETF WG has been proposed in the Routing Area. The IESG has not made > > > any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is > > > provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the > > > IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2017-10-09. > > ... > > > > > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are > > > increasingly considered to support mobility, overlay networking for > > > virtualization and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. > > > > The problem there is that the same properties that facilitate routing > > also facilitate tracking. > > > > Consider a mobile node that switches from a Wi-Fi network to a cellular > > network. In the current state of the art, there is no relation between > > the Wi-Fi address and the cellular address. Intermediaries cannot > > observe the traffic and deduce that two different flows of IP packets > > originate from the same node. In contrast, with an ID/Loc architecture, > > the two flows are associated with the same identifier, which can then be > > used to track the movements of the device. > > > > Similarly, consider a node that connects several times to the same > > network, and each time uses IPv6 temporary addresses. The web servers > > that it contact cannot use the IP addresses to correlate different > > connections that happened at different times. This would change if the > > identifier in an ID/LOC architecture remained constant. > > > > Multipath TCP and planned multipath extensions of QUIC are example of > > transport protocol that allow transport connections to use multiple > > network paths simultaneously. In both cases, there s significant work > > going on to ensure that intermediaries cannot easily associate the > > traffic on the multiple paths with a single connection. If the > > multi-homing function was delegated to an ID/LOC system, intermediaries > > could potentially observe the identifiers and associate these connections. > > > > In short, careless applications of the ID/LOC architecture could easily > > result in serious privacy issues. The proposed charter does include a > > brief statement about privacy: > > > > > - Analysis of the concepts of identity-identifier split and dynamic > > > identifier changes, including their implications on anonymity and privacy. > > > Explicitly, the framework must define privacy requirements and how potential > > > extensions/solutions should meet them. > > > > This is a good start, but the whole concept of "unique identifiers" is > > scary, and I would like to see this expanded. For example, I would like > > to see an explicit reference to a baseline, e.g. assuring no privacy > > downgrade compared to IPv6 temporary addresses, or assuring that hosts > > that elect to not be tracked when roaming across networks will not be. I > > also know that there have been discussions of hiding identifiers from > > intermediaries, and i would like to see that as an explicit goal of the > > proposed WG. > > > > -- > > Christian Huitema > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ideas mailing list > Ideas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas > >
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Templin, Fred L
- [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks (ide… The IESG
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … stephen.farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … John C Klensin
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padmadevi Pillay Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Yingzhen Qu
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Mike StJohns
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Georgios Karagiannis
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Alvaro Retana
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Randy Bush
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Randy Bush
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Jeff Tantsura
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Randy Bush
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Sam Sun
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Georgios Karagiannis
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… John C Klensin
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Toerless Eckert