Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks (ideas)
"Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Mon, 02 October 2017 16:30 UTC
Return-Path: <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
X-Original-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ideas@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551D91344C6; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 09:30:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.219
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dkmkXT8oljkB; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 09:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F20113234B; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 09:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id v92GUhFf041659; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 09:30:44 -0700
Received: from XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.221]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id v92GUeuT041615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 Oct 2017 09:30:40 -0700
Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdd::8988:efdd) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 09:30:40 -0700
Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 09:30:40 -0700
From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
CC: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "ideas@ietf.org" <ideas@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks (ideas)
Thread-Index: AQHTO5b1XXR8U7Y2UkCpxQHITCbUoqLQumHAgAB6ewD//4r3YA==
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2017 16:30:40 +0000
Message-ID: <3a9cf74ba67d4222b1c543d8bfccfe20@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com>
References: <e476f817-580b-9083-48bb-72de1745f1c1@huitema.net> <67067a23-bb7f-08e4-3766-8802d8f3121f@huitema.net> <45e8993a73ef4bb9b3914f32c4609823@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <CALx6S35GKkW1GzSDA2qPx9SJWUfGE23SC4gct3H7eg=EUixgCA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CALx6S35GKkW1GzSDA2qPx9SJWUfGE23SC4gct3H7eg=EUixgCA@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted
x-originating-ip: [137.136.248.6]
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3a9cf74ba67d4222b1c543d8bfccfe20XCH150608nwnosboeingcom_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-TM-AS-MML: disable
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ideas/oG6fAEoSLgnmMpa7WJhEg15We2w>
Subject: Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks (ideas)
X-BeenThere: ideas@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussions relating to the development, clarification, and implementation of control-plane infrastructures and functionalities in ID enabled networks." <ideas.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ideas>, <mailto:ideas-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ideas/>
List-Post: <mailto:ideas@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ideas-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas>, <mailto:ideas-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2017 16:30:46 -0000
Hi Tom, >If the good guys are able to track mobile devices based on plain text address, doesn't that > mean the bad guys will be able to do that also? Seems a little bit scary prospect to me in > the context of aviation... There are no bad guys in this network. The underlay network is secured against unauthorized access. Thanks - Fred From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 9:28 AM To: Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Cc: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; ideas@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks (ideas) On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:18 AM, Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrote: Hi Christian, For applications like civil aviation Air Traffic Management (ATM), we have a case where it is desirable for Air Traffic Control (ATC) to be able to track the mobile nodes (airplanes). We want for ATC to be able to track airplanes wherever they happen to be worldwide and connected over whatever available data links (satellite, cellular, WiMAX, VHF, etc.). The mobile nodes also benefit from being globally addressable at all times, since they are willing participants in the global ATM service. So, we see ID/Loc architectures as a useful tool for supporting this safety-of-flight critical ATM service. Should it be noted that there are use cases where mobile node tracking is indeed desirable? If the good guys are able to track mobile devices based on plain text address, doesn't that mean the bad guys will be able to do that also? Seems a little bit scary prospect to me in the context of aviation... Tom Thanks - Fred From: Ideas [mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ideas-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Christian Huitema Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 8:56 AM To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>>; ideas@ietf.org<mailto:ideas@ietf.org> Subject: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks (ideas) I just realized that I forget to copy this message to the IESG and IDEAS mailing lists. Sorry. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks (ideas) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2017 17:06:46 -0700 From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net><mailto:huitema@huitema.net> To: IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org><mailto:ietf@ietf.org> On 9/29/2017 9:13 AM, The IESG wrote: > A new IETF WG has been proposed in the Routing Area. The IESG has not made > any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is > provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the > IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org<mailto:iesg@ietf.org>) by 2017-10-09. ... > > Network solutions based on the concept of Identifier-Locator separation are > increasingly considered to support mobility, overlay networking for > virtualization and multi-homing across heterogeneous access networks. The problem there is that the same properties that facilitate routing also facilitate tracking. Consider a mobile node that switches from a Wi-Fi network to a cellular network. In the current state of the art, there is no relation between the Wi-Fi address and the cellular address. Intermediaries cannot observe the traffic and deduce that two different flows of IP packets originate from the same node. In contrast, with an ID/Loc architecture, the two flows are associated with the same identifier, which can then be used to track the movements of the device. Similarly, consider a node that connects several times to the same network, and each time uses IPv6 temporary addresses. The web servers that it contact cannot use the IP addresses to correlate different connections that happened at different times. This would change if the identifier in an ID/LOC architecture remained constant. Multipath TCP and planned multipath extensions of QUIC are example of transport protocol that allow transport connections to use multiple network paths simultaneously. In both cases, there s significant work going on to ensure that intermediaries cannot easily associate the traffic on the multiple paths with a single connection. If the multi-homing function was delegated to an ID/LOC system, intermediaries could potentially observe the identifiers and associate these connections. In short, careless applications of the ID/LOC architecture could easily result in serious privacy issues. The proposed charter does include a brief statement about privacy: > - Analysis of the concepts of identity-identifier split and dynamic > identifier changes, including their implications on anonymity and privacy. > Explicitly, the framework must define privacy requirements and how potential > extensions/solutions should meet them. This is a good start, but the whole concept of "unique identifiers" is scary, and I would like to see this expanded. For example, I would like to see an explicit reference to a baseline, e.g. assuring no privacy downgrade compared to IPv6 temporary addresses, or assuring that hosts that elect to not be tracked when roaming across networks will not be. I also know that there have been discussions of hiding identifiers from intermediaries, and i would like to see that as an explicit goal of the proposed WG. -- Christian Huitema _______________________________________________ Ideas mailing list Ideas@ietf.org<mailto:Ideas@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ideas
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Templin, Fred L
- [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Ena… Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks (ide… The IESG
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … stephen.farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … John C Klensin
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padmadevi Pillay Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Jari Arkko
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Yingzhen Qu
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Mike StJohns
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] Fwd: Re: WG Review: IDentity Enabled … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Georgios Karagiannis
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Alvaro Retana
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Randy Bush
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Randy Bush
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Jeff Tantsura
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Randy Bush
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Robert Moskowitz
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Padma Pillay-Esnault
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Sam Sun
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Ideas] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Networks … Georgios Karagiannis
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… John C Klensin
- Re: [Ideas] [lisp] WG Review: IDentity Enabled Ne… Toerless Eckert