Re: [Idna-update] Genart telechat review of draft-faltstrom-unicode11-08

Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Wed, 20 March 2019 05:19 UTC

Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
X-Original-To: idna-update@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: idna-update@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3854130F33 for <idna-update@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 22:19:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.923
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.923 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OuvWWnScXBEW for <idna-update@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 22:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-OS2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1410095.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.141.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75374130EF2 for <idna-update@ietf.org>; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 22:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-it-aoyama-ac-jp; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=wHPwv9TEhcJtZGzCjjOskUqpk9yYL/kDiiSWD+J+BJs=; b=xgc0018yqsUOfaMVMw04qy3tkYi3YwisbcbrTmvHt+sP4ccNOy9bJOXJvIpoK8LfOLl10EH6dYxOVarNNLbI8DncOCcDJ8rGFtSkU3I/ZzPcb5PdHRxO8lh36gpvvrNLOyC156rFJ0N3SmCMEwA+16xcz1e5tZSw4MorGjO6qns=
Received: from TYAPR01MB5149.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (20.179.187.18) by TYAPR01MB3167.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (20.177.104.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1709.14; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 05:19:41 +0000
Received: from TYAPR01MB5149.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::98b6:d90e:9ae7:302]) by TYAPR01MB5149.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::98b6:d90e:9ae7:302%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1709.015; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 05:19:41 +0000
From: =?utf-8?B?TWFydGluIEouIETDvHJzdA==?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
To: "Asmus Freytag (c)" <asmusf@ix.netcom.com>
CC: "idna-update@ietf.org" <idna-update@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Idna-update] Genart telechat review of draft-faltstrom-unicode11-08
Thread-Index: AQHU3VzVurPJZqZEcUKPczDgWng2vqYRo1uAgADhB4CAABM9AIAAKCYAgABl5QCAAM2GAIAACyCA
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 05:19:41 +0000
Message-ID: <b2e65bf3-c0b9-a756-2ffb-689ab655f215@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
References: <155289429627.26188.2047331005281292889@ietfa.amsl.com> <458987D953A5B3227D3A791F@PSB> <EA2B2A09-152C-4AF3-B0C8-0D352CCA6647@netnod.se> <6b149a8d-9102-ea1a-5048-b83842fc66c0@ix.netcom.com> <3a7bd491-ab06-b8c7-9a8b-862c7a3cd122@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <c7885cd4-cfd5-1458-e58f-e5f83cde1cad@ix.netcom.com> <16668966-8378-0477-97df-df6b114a830a@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
In-Reply-To: <16668966-8378-0477-97df-df6b114a830a@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-clientproxiedby: TYAPR01CA0005.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404::17) To TYAPR01MB5149.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:12e::18)
authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp;
x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1
x-originating-ip: [133.2.210.64]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c5ed4e1c-c6d0-4301-13bc-08d6acf3a81e
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(7021145)(8989299)(4534185)(7022145)(4603075)(4627221)(201702281549075)(8990200)(7048125)(7024125)(7025125)(7027125)(7023125)(5600127)(711020)(4605104)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:TYAPR01MB3167;
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: TYAPR01MB3167:
x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 4
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <TYAPR01MB3167C7FFE83535D204F51106CA410@TYAPR01MB3167.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com>
x-forefront-prvs: 098291215C
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(346002)(376002)(396003)(39840400004)(136003)(366004)(52314003)(199004)(189003)(6116002)(2906002)(5660300002)(8936002)(3846002)(76176011)(15650500001)(53546011)(26005)(6506007)(86362001)(386003)(102836004)(85202003)(106356001)(31686004)(446003)(305945005)(11346002)(74482002)(6486002)(476003)(2616005)(25786009)(229853002)(186003)(486006)(105586002)(52116002)(6436002)(316002)(786003)(14444005)(68736007)(97736004)(81166006)(93886005)(4326008)(6916009)(6512007)(966005)(66574012)(14454004)(256004)(71200400001)(508600001)(99286004)(31696002)(71190400001)(85182001)(6246003)(8676002)(6306002)(66066001)(81156014)(53936002)(7736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:TYAPR01MB3167; H:TYAPR01MB5149.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:0; MX:1;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: it.aoyama.ac.jp does not designate permitted sender hosts)
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: BUlf2QPs623S2eNN+D+05gWzWQuEebciB4O/SEkWNhL2f/yZ5M8sNYCPOKaxQ92Xz3Zq+g9H1ge17Wl/8VXnCwtCIp0RU8he0MYMhNziRjRWe8llhSdKfu2kLC55CKqaxmKuem+4a3Xj4M4jVQgXnDS7gqReETU116nIV8tmmbATbmrmV4g3wSdVQbty/L75eqQdlukPEEkf/rtf8qPilSJQHnoO1Zft6c59oN2CuFUejDv/kiBLYJQDyOXBRmmlVxq4rzpgjt0mpDQpgTdqDhGcf65wJ5d2pwx6Ec5Fiw2b2sddH3tduPcfIANlF1Wt4ARS8FAppv/nku3ppzfbxajeQHcGaKTc4uOog5w45fGLN9gqbV4e+kPJ8e/WZ+0zEA3OGkas8Vl5SeM5V2EeWUye7iYzpfxjVXtkYHNlPsE=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-ID: <B696CF38BAEE3F48998571EA6EFA80DD@jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c5ed4e1c-c6d0-4301-13bc-08d6acf3a81e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Mar 2019 05:19:41.8959 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TYAPR01MB3167
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/idna-update/iJVMY3nCyYwfGq3vCwfbqmQSixg>
Subject: Re: [Idna-update] Genart telechat review of draft-faltstrom-unicode11-08
X-BeenThere: idna-update@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Internationalized Domain Names in Applications \(IDNA\) implementation and update discussions" <idna-update.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/idna-update>, <mailto:idna-update-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/idna-update/>
List-Post: <mailto:idna-update@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:idna-update-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idna-update>, <mailto:idna-update-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 05:19:47 -0000

Sorry I forgot to mention it, but I think the change of the Unicode 
property for U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM DIGIT ONE happened because the 
General_Category value "Nd" was tightened to only apply to consecutive 
decimal digits that start with zero. See 
https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode12.0.0/ch04.pdf, page 175:

 >>>>
The Numeric_Type = Decimal property value (which is correlated with the 
General_Category = Nd property value) is limited to those numeric 
characters that are used in decimal-radix numbers and for which a full 
set of digits has been encoded in a contiguous range, with ascending 
order of Numeric_Value, and with the digit zero as the first code point 
in the range.
 >>>>

Either the tightening must have happened in the 6.0.0 timeframe, or 
U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM DIGIT ONE was originally classified wrongly.

Anyway, the DNS doesn't need decimal digits to be in a contiguous block 
starting with zero.

Regards,   Martin.


On 2019/03/20 13:39, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
> Hello Asmus,
> 
> On 2019/03/20 01:24, Asmus Freytag (c) wrote:
>> On 3/19/2019 3:19 AM, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
>>> In the 6.0.0 timeframe, there were both more actual changes (3), and
>>> there was one change where we moved from PVALID to DISALLOWED, which I
>>> personally think is the tougher one (see
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6452#section-1.3). And looking at the
>>> code chart athttps://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1980.pdf, one may even
>>> reasonably argue that keeping U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM DIGIT ONE would
>>> have been the better choice, because when one compares U+19B1 NEW TAI
>>> LUE VOWEL SIGN AA and U+19D1 NEW TAI LUE DIGIT ONE and finds them having
>>> (at least on first approximation) the same glyph shape, one can easily
>>> guess that U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM_DIGIT_  ONE is used (this is only a
>>> quick conjection which would have to be confirmed) exactly in situations
>>> where the distinction between letters and digits is important, of which
>>> we know domain names are a good example.
>>
>> Here's a telling example of how a formal problem can be practically
>> irrelevant:
>>
>> I looked up New Tai Lue on Omniglot:
>>
>> "The new script is used exclusively in Jinghong, so could be called the
>>     New Jinghong Tai Lue script, and is used for shop and street signs.
>> *Fe**w people can read it*. "   (Emphasis mine).
>>
>> If you read the full text you get the impression that the whole script
>> represents a failed state-imposed "simplification". Unicode still needs
>> to encode it, so that archival texts from the period between 1950 and 1980
>> can be encoded, but it's surely of no practical relevance for domain names.
> 
> Interestingly enough, their page (at
> https://omniglot.com/writing/tailue.htm) shows the U+19DA NEW TAI LUE
> _THAM_ DIGIT ONE glyph rather than the U+19D1 NEW TAI LUE DIGIT ONE
> glyph in the Numerals section.
> 
> Regards,   Martin.
> _______________________________________________
> IDNA-UPDATE mailing list
> IDNA-UPDATE@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idna-update
>