Re: [Idnet] Benefits of Introducing AI into Network

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Fri, 12 May 2017 03:04 UTC

Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: idnet@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: idnet@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB78612E872 for <idnet@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 May 2017 20:04:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4AN1U7F9eK0N for <idnet@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 May 2017 20:04:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf0-x241.google.com (mail-pf0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D217129439 for <idnet@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 May 2017 19:58:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf0-x241.google.com with SMTP id w69so5355379pfk.1 for <idnet@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 May 2017 19:58:58 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1WigU1jWvR9O7r/a4mCyHezjaFcKnlQD8p4+FEgK/Vw=; b=suJl+A9F/arrBv8h2V9r2UFbn/OQCXTUT7f7HLE+kDzBcKAUGSdKipizLjxVZocX3v 1pDeiPUsKekl2k68sEor0E2+Zh4N43cyVQkDzWavgdc8UqietT98eYO2EM0Xv+P583+K dJFt/PHfWbW+wxL7oqsTBoeZvahfaigCHFs7tDvv4NWhcZco8OAK2O2JXVTaf8Mc1kaM N80lhkBIL8JEZzsSZ9cJE1ICSnPENKp73GPM49PkEEAvD68UtU3fKCKPT84UpOtppBGM Gyl6Qobah1+1u9dXaFYDHZ2Jq4mV25Mo8TkgJQluCU4YzoUBZJgw7oarE8bZz2WxqYcd wk4g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1WigU1jWvR9O7r/a4mCyHezjaFcKnlQD8p4+FEgK/Vw=; b=jies+G0An9qUP3wRzHm4lzKfL6DxGKhk/Z3X14jG3GECNPsZ4dkMs9kOB1hBUdk4JB CERf9YUKoSKU4riUw6quG9SUDy2R+dQcmY10hsCxIkog/zBRXRvd6D2PwGdH/hG6VjXT qDWNEz89RTGKf10/GXbBTbfb3ujCJFY0vLSgG3JxwwG7+Znro6ar5sEk8kUz/bkYayjL XqUAy/2BLWQM/KS035MZV9rlD2qFbxyLlu6xxDjLAHmrT1BJFeLa5lgceCETcel1j4i+ 8Fofr80/yurjHlMZHSaR/viBt9+4MA88OiXqMSE+0mooktNQc3PVzltcRVEn8i47jzs0 sYKw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAW7XU2KNNvcT86LAv+Cx5hUhGUZdr1Bu/vnvITgyUnTPHkxcvY fW44NLd6a61vMw==
X-Received: by 10.99.109.129 with SMTP id i123mr1889770pgc.103.1494557937660; Thu, 11 May 2017 19:58:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.178.21] ([118.149.111.242]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g5sm1905186pfe.34.2017.05.11.19.58.55 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 11 May 2017 19:58:57 -0700 (PDT)
To: Javier Antich Romaguera <jantich@juniper.net>, "Fang, Luyuan" <lufang@ebay.com>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "idnet@ietf.org" <idnet@ietf.org>
References: <D9F58892-34F2-4C7C-9A75-6C21B512F6B0@ebay.com> <3e15e008-f2ae-951d-7b2c-7ada800a075d@gmail.com> <7D1D8481-335B-4F91-B96D-A50B1F75ECA4@juniper.net>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
Message-ID: <6f7d1c50-a10f-7c8a-f084-7c8b1f543bbb@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 14:59:04 +1200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <7D1D8481-335B-4F91-B96D-A50B1F75ECA4@juniper.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/idnet/6WvHJ6cqVWZSMoTcLftafbcVA9o>
Subject: Re: [Idnet] Benefits of Introducing AI into Network
X-BeenThere: idnet@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "The IDNet \(Intelligence-Defined Network\) " <idnet.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/idnet>, <mailto:idnet-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/idnet/>
List-Post: <mailto:idnet@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:idnet-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idnet>, <mailto:idnet-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 03:04:13 -0000

Hi,

On 12/05/2017 10:35, Javier Antich Romaguera wrote:
>>> Let's take a specific example: the CASM work in the IETF. One approach to massive scale support of address and prefix management is a massive centralised database and an old-fashioned (NETCONF/YANG style) mechanism to push allocations out into the network. Another approach is a large set of distributed autonomic prefix managers that request new space from a distributed address pool when necessary. The second one is definitely a target for machine learning, in order to set optimal parameters for the individual prefix managers.
> 
> I´m sorry, but what is the relationship between something being centralized or distributed and using or not a mechanism like Netconf using YANG models to communicate certain information (in this case prefixes or addresses)? They are entirely orthogonal. 

I don't believe they are orthogonal when you consider scaling and resilience simultaneously.
Of course the actual delivery of parameters to end systems can be performed using the same
tools like NETCONF (or RADIUS, or DHCPv6/PD) whether or not it's centralised. However, at
large scale, if the network partitions, you will not get resiliency from a centralised scheme.

> Wherever you do your processing (centralized or distributed) or your storage (centralized or distributed) you still need a mechanism to model your data (YANG or other) and a mechanism to encode and transport your data (Netconf or other). 

Yes, if that was unclear in what I wrote, I apologise. I mean to say that the mechanisms
used to achieve very large scale, resilience and optimization will be distribution of
functions supported by machine learning etc. But indeed the delivery of config to the end
systems will very likely not change.

> Not sure what exactly is old-fashioned on Netconf/YANG for this purposes discussion, and what is has to do with using AI or not.
 
The point is that Netconf (and CLI, Radius, DHCP or any other way of delivering config)
are all fundamentally equivalent, and my understanding is that on this list we are
looking for innovation.

   Brian