Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architecture and Call for Interests
David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net> Wed, 29 March 2017 14:58 UTC
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From: David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:58:00 -0700
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To: Chris Hammerschmidt <laxris@gmail.com>
Cc: Jérôme François <jerome.francois@inria.fr>, list-idnet <idnet@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architecture and Call for Interests
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Chris, Totally agree. This is part of the reason we need standardized data sets, namely, so we can compare results and understand if we're making progress. See e.g., http://image-net.org/challenges/LSVRC/2016/ for an example. The result has been the steady ratcheting down of error rates to super-human levels. We have nothing like this for networking, and as I have been saying, that is one of our biggest challenges. Dave On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 7:33 AM, Chris Hammerschmidt <laxris@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > equally important to having datasets* is proposing benchmarks with the > datasets.* Right now, everyone has different expectations and from my > personal experience, many reviewers at networking conferences won't accept > a "typical" machine learning paper with applications in networking > consisting of data+model+evaluation. Expectations range from something like > a large-scale practical application case to addressing worries about > adversarial influence on the learned model, or systems that take not only > care of machine-learning malicious/anomalous/interesting behavior but > want to have guidelines how to apply it, e.g. filtering rules and > parameter/threshold setting guidelines. Often, these values have to be set > with domain knowledge, adjusted to the specific application case (as > networks can be very different). > > The lack of benchmarks makes it incredibly hard to compare different > solutions to each other, or even to just apply a new method to an old > problem; and indeed, reviewers have pointed out to me that the problem of > machine learning from network traffic has been solved already and there is > no point in further papers on this topic. A *shared benchmark* solves > this problem by delegating the argument for the relevance ONCE while > setting up the benchmark, rather than distributing the task to each author. > > Cheers > Christian > > On 28 March 2017 at 20:46, Jérôme François <jerome.francois@inria.fr> > wrote: > >> Hi >> >> Le 28/03/2017 à 20:25, Pedro Martinez-Julia a écrit : >> > On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:59:38AM -0700, David Meyer wrote: >> >> Hey Sheng, >> >> >> >> I just wanted to revive my key concern on [0] (same one I made at the >> >> NMRL): The hard parts of getting Machine Learning intelligence into >> >> Networking is the Machine Learning part. In addition, successful >> deployment >> >> of ML requires knowledge of ML combined with domain knowledge. We >> >> definitely have the domain knowledge; the problem is that we don't >> have the >> >> ML knowledge, and this is one of the big factors holding us back; see >> e.g. >> >> Andrew's discussion of talent in [1]. Slides such as [0] seem to imply >> >> that *someone else* (in particular, not us) will handle the ML part >> of all >> >> of this. I'll just note that in general successful deployments of ML >> don't >> >> work this way; the domain experts will have to learn ML (and vice >> versa) >> >> for us to be successful (again, see [1] and many others). >> > Dear Dave, >> > >> > You are true in that ML/domain knowledge is necessary but, however it is >> > worth to take into account that it is not strictly required and it will >> > even be counterproductive in some (or maybe most) situations. At the end >> > of the day, encouraging (or forcing) a network expert to learn ML is >> > quite difficult, the results will be delayed until the learning phase >> > ends, and (most probably) s/he will never get a better solution than a >> > person that has been an expert in ML from a long time ago. Therefore, it >> > is better to make separate experts (in ML and the domain itself) to >> > collaborate in a common solution. Therefore, and I think it has been >> > mentioned before, we have to (try to) enroll experts in ML to the IDNET >> > group and see what can we do together... >> This is a general trend that only a single person cannot be expert in >> everything. Actually, a good network expert may require good ML but also >> good software skills (including software formal verification knowledge). >> So, in my opinion the problem is larger. >> >> Enhancing collaboration between network and ML expert is a path that >> starts in many company and insitutes I think. Discussing with ML >> experts, they are usually open and happy to discover new "use cases" >> but their first question will be "do you have some labelled datasets >> that we can work with" which relates to the problem raised in previous >> emails about open datasets. >> >> In my opinion, if we wan to attract ML experts in our dicussions, we >> should identify few scenrios, defined them precisely and provide an open >> dataset. By defining them, I mean we have to give them all background >> they need to understand (that can be built incrementally through >> discussion) in a well-documented format. >> >> jerome >> >> >> Perhaps a useful exercise would be to write an ID that makes your >> >> assumptions explicit? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Dave >> > Regards, >> > Pedro >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> IDNET mailing list >> IDNET@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idnet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > IDNET mailing list > IDNET@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idnet > >
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Sheng Jiang
- [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architecture… Sheng Jiang
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Shamik Mishra
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Oscar Mauricio Caicedo Rendon
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Brian Njenga
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Pedro Martinez-Julia
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Brian Njenga
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Jérôme François
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Pedro Martinez-Julia
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Brian Njenga
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Jérôme François
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… 김민석
- [Idnet] 答复: Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… dingxiaojian (A)
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Alex Galis
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Chris Hammerschmidt
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Pedro Martinez-Julia
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… 김민석
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… 김민석
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Sheng Jiang
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… YuLing Chen (yulingch)
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Michele Zorzi
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Manav Bhatia
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Sheng Jiang
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Wei Jiang
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Aydin Ulas
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… dingxiaojian (A)
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Pedro Martinez-Julia
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Laurent Ciavaglia
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Laurent Ciavaglia
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Jérôme François
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Lori Jakab
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Oscar Mauricio Caicedo Rendon
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Pedro Martinez-Julia
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… David Meyer
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Juraj Giertl
- Re: [Idnet] Intelligence-Defined Network Architec… Pedro Martinez-Julia