Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt
Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Fri, 09 July 2021 07:11 UTC
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From: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2021 19:11:24 +1200
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To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: Lin Han <lin.han@futurewei.com>, idr@ietf.org, INT Area <int-area@ietf.org>, SARAH@jiscmail.ac.uk, "UTTARO, JAMES" <ju1738@att.com>, rtgwg@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt
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The IETF position on LI is not exactly that it's anathema, but that we will not standardise *any* intercept techniques, legal or otherwise. RFC 2804. Regards, Brian Carpenter (via tiny screen & keyboard) On Fri, 9 Jul 2021, 18:33 Stewart Bryant, <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote: > Unfortunately LI is not our call. > > I know the IETF finds it an anathema but it is an unspoken (in IETF) > reality of the telecommunications industry. > > The concept of a huge number of highly portable, highly directional, > microwave links that are then relayed opaquely to a foreign country is > going to delight some agencies and give heartburn to their colleagues in > other parts of the same agency cluster. > > I think that we can all postulate how this would (will) be solved in a > mega-cluster owned by a large ITU region 2 country, or a particularly large > Asian country but I assume we want to design a global / universal system > rather than one that will otherwise inevitably be partitioned due to > geo-political security concerns. > > Stewart > > Sent from my iPad > > On 8 Jul 2021, at 23:22, Lin Han <lin.han@futurewei.com> wrote: > > > > Hesham, > > > > Thanks for the answer. > > I don’t have too many concerns for this regard, and it may be out the > scope of the draft. > > > > Satellite to ground station communication needs license for its spectrum > in different country and LI is feasible. > > But ISL is between satellites. LI may not be a feasible requirement: 1) > Satellites are in out space that is not belonging to any country, so I > doubt any country can have such legal requirement for ISL. 2) ISL use laser > that is not a spectrum controlled by any country or organization. 3) LI for > ISL is so costly and seems not likely. You need to get FCC or other > organization’s approve for the new orbit to launch a new satellite and its > orbit is very close to the existing satellite, this itself is almost > impossible. I don’t see any other feasible way you can do LI for ISL if > laser is used for ISL. > > > > Regards > > > > Lin > > > > > > *From:* Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, July 8, 2021 10:57 AM > *To:* Lin Han <lin.han@futurewei.com> > *Cc:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Int-area@ietf.org; > SARAH@JISCMAIL.AC.UK; rtgwg@ietf.org; UTTARO, JAMES <ju1738@att.com>; > idr@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for > draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt > > > > I think LI means Lawful Intercept. > > It is a security issue. I recall seeing some ETSI documents about it. > > > > Hesham > > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2021, 10:52 AM Lin Han <lin.han@futurewei.com> wrote: > > Hi, Stewart, > > > > What does “LI” stand for? > > ISL is not mature enough for real adoption. > > The academia research suggested to use laser instead of microwave. When > laser is used for ISL, there should not have spectrum license issue, I > don’t see the ITU or USA has spectrum allocation for the frequency of laser > (400THz~700THz). > > > > Lin > > > > *From:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Thursday, July 8, 2021 7:19 AM > *To:* Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com> > *Cc:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Lin Han < > lin.han@futurewei.com>; Int-area@ietf.org; SARAH@JISCMAIL.AC.UK; > rtgwg@ietf.org; UTTARO, JAMES <ju1738@att.com>; idr@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for > draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt > > > > The thing that worries me about iSL is whether the inability to do LI will > prohibit licensing in some countries. > > > > - Stewart > > > > > > > > On 7 Jul 2021, at 03:51, Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Mark Handley published the paper "*Using ground relays for low-latency > wide-area routing in megaconstellations"* to show that even if we do not > have ISL we can use ground terminals to route traffic with better latency > than fiber links. > > > > Thanks > > Hesham > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 6, 2021, 10:08 AM Lin Han <lin.han@futurewei.com> wrote: > > Hi, Jim > > I don't have clear answer. > What I can guess now is that most of current technologies (with > enhancement) can be used, but some new technologies might be needed to > solve the satellite specific issues, such as fast mobility, frequent > topology changes, constraints in satellite power, security in open space, > etc. > It is up to the community to decide what new technologies and what new > protocols will be developed. > > Regards > > Lin > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UTTARO, JAMES <ju1738@att.com> > Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 7:20 AM > To: Lin Han <lin.han@futurewei.com>; Int-area@ietf.org; idr@ietf.org; > rtgwg@ietf.org > Cc: SARAH@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for > draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt > > Lin, > > Are you suggesting that the current set of protocols can be used > with or without enhancements or is the uniqueness of the satellite network > require new protocol(s) to address the architecture you have laid out.. > > Thanks, > Jim Uttaro > > -----Original Message----- > From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Lin Han > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2021 8:41 PM > To: Int-area@ietf.org; idr@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org > Cc: SARAH@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > Subject: [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for > draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt > > Hi, > > This draft analyzed the problems and requirements for the satellite > network when it is integrated with Internet by current routing > technologies. > It may be relevant and interesting to internet, BGP, IGP. The further > solution proposals may also come from different groups including research > initiative SARAH. > > Look forwarding to discussion and comments. > > Thanks > > Lin > > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org> > Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 5:07 PM > To: Lin Han <lin.han@futurewei.com>; Richard Li <richard.li@futurewei.com> > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt > > > A new version of I-D, draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Lin Han and posted to the IETF > repository. > > Name: draft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net > Revision: 00 > Title: Problems and Requirements of Satellite Constellation for > Internet > Document date: 2021-07-03 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 32 > URL: > 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<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Fdatatracker.ietf.org*2Fdoc*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-lhan-problems-requirements-satellite-net%26amp%3Bdata%3D04*7C01*7Clin.han*40futurewei.com*7C495bb2e109a743748f6108d93e7fa6f8*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C0*7C637609540278593776*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000%26amp%3Bsdata%3Djl23CFSMjAbFnPCvHABeVeAKmOH1ODaq1q7U2BfH*2FQU*3D%26amp%3Breserved%3D0__%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!BhdT!xvPiP9_hbkTD5NSajUzwqMhYGZLdFbSjp8NUTJ6PMxLHqI6tW_E4fYkRUn0%24&data=04%7C01%7Clin.han%40futurewei.com%7Cff33351a8dc04966451d08d94239cfc3%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637613638351143423%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=tESFivWTD1WIRkJCOz2ovGLbBqAO8Pfn0H%2BrC0IZ6ZQ%3D&reserved=0> > mp;reserved=0 > > > Abstract: > This document presents the detailed analysis about the problems and > requirements of satellite constellation used for Internet. It starts > from the satellite orbit basics, coverage calculation, then it > estimates the time constraints for the communications between > satellite and ground-station, also between satellites. How to use > satellite constellation for Internet is discussed in details > including the satellite relay and satellite networking. The problems > and requirements of using traditional network technology for > satellite network integrating with Internet are finally outlined. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fidr__%3B!!BhdT!xvPiP9_hbkTD5NSajUzwqMhYGZLdFbSjp8NUTJ6PMxLHqI6tW_E4Z0Dk4O4%24&data=04%7C01%7Clin.han%40futurewei.com%7Cc54df16138144c7ed23408d940893b44%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637611780428314367%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=UC0XpJ%2FtkgXxnU9yJazLK7kMtL0X94PfeVFSeaqMaYE%3D&reserved=0 > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fidr__%3B!!BhdT!xvPiP9_hbkTD5NSajUzwqMhYGZLdFbSjp8NUTJ6PMxLHqI6tW_E4Z0Dk4O4%24&data=04%7C01%7Clin.han%40futurewei.com%7Cff33351a8dc04966451d08d94239cfc3%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637613638351153418%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=KPbRpayvpcUWVCFVFkOuBHH%2FtQk5NcZ%2FQlRT9euUQLA%3D&reserved=0> > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fint-area&data=04%7C01%7Clin.han%40futurewei.com%7Cff33351a8dc04966451d08d94239cfc3%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637613638351163411%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=fbS3lxw1h%2FMJUB8pkNyDFPxx033%2BRc1kmW3X4fUuisk%3D&reserved=0> > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fint-area&data=04%7C01%7Clin.han%40futurewei.com%7Cff33351a8dc04966451d08d94239cfc3%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637613638351163411%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=fbS3lxw1h%2FMJUB8pkNyDFPxx033%2BRc1kmW3X4fUuisk%3D&reserved=0> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >
- [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for draft-lhan… Lin Han
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] FW: New Version Notification… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for draft-… Alejandro Acosta
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-lhan… UTTARO, JAMES
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-lhan… Lin Han
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Lin Han
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Lin Han
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Lin Han
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Brian Carpenter
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Brian Carpenter
- Re: [Idr] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Int-area] New Version N… Alexander Vainshtein
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Idr] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Int-area] New Version N… Lin Han
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Lin Han
- Re: [Idr] [Int-area] New Version Notification for… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Idr] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Int-area] New Version N… Brian E Carpenter