[Idr] Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability-00.txt

Ketan Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.com> Thu, 07 November 2024 13:47 UTC

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From: Ketan Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2024 13:47:05 +0000
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To: Donatas Abraitis <donatas.abraitis@gmail.com>
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CC: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Idr] Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability-00.txt
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May I suggest that the implementers update this report:
https://wiki.ietf.org/group/idr/implementations/draft-ietf-idr-dynamic-cap

Thanks,
Ketan

On Thu, Nov 7, 2024 at 1:17 PM Donatas Abraitis
<donatas.abraitis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> FRRouting also has dynamic capabilities, but Robert is about dynamic capability not being defined as RFC yet (sad).
>
> On Thu, Nov 7, 2024 at 3:11 PM Krishnaswamy Ananthamurthy (kriswamy) <kriswamy@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>>                 Cisco NX-OS has implementation of the Dynamic capability. I have discussed with Enke during IETF 120 and also with Jeff Haas on NXOS implementation.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Krishna
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> Date: Thursday, November 7, 2024 at 11:24 AM
>> To: Krishnaswamy Ananthamurthy (kriswamy) <kriswamy@cisco.com>
>> Cc: Donatas Abraitis <donatas.abraitis@gmail.com>, idr@ietf.org <idr@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability-00.txt
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> Dynamic capability does not exist - it was never implemented per full spec you are quoting as normative reference.
>>
>>
>>
>> There was an attempt by Enke to implement a subset of it just to avoid session reset when adding/removing address families but this also did not go far.
>>
>>
>>
>> So with that I do not think this addition to the spec is helpful. Furthermore I don't think spec can progress with Normative Reference being a non implemented draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2024 at 12:19 PM Krishnaswamy Ananthamurthy (kriswamy) <kriswamy@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Donatas,
>>
>>                 Operation section is added to the “01” version. Also added text on how to dynamically send this capability.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Krishna
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Donatas Abraitis <donatas.abraitis@gmail.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2024 at 12:33 PM
>> To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> Cc: Krishnaswamy Ananthamurthy (kriswamy) <kriswamy@cisco.com>, idr@ietf.org <idr@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability-00.txt
>>
>> Also, we might need another Cease NOTIFICATION message that would tell us to retain the routes
>>
>> (while _updating_ new route types) combined with Graceful-Restart Notification support?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 2:29 PM Donatas Abraitis <donatas.abraitis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> But then... Without dynamically sending (dynamic capability or another type of message?) this capability it's _hard_ to imagine how it would work correctly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Clearly, as Robert said, the operational section is a MUST here.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 2:23 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>>
>> It is not as sweet as it looks :)
>>
>>
>>
>> List of route types keeps getting extended in multi route-type AFI/SAFIs .. so you really never know what is supported by the peer unless you know how to operate your network well.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the proposal is a safety fuse to address not so well operated networks ...
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 12:21 PM Donatas Abraitis <donatas.abraitis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What optional route types would be advertised? I mean if an implementation supports let's say EVPN, LS, etc. does it
>>
>> include all of them or the _list_ should be configurable?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 10:12 PM Krishnaswamy Ananthamurthy (kriswamy) <kriswamy=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> Appreciate your quick review and feedback, and the following is the response.
>>
>>
>>
>> #1 – Will update the text
>>
>> #2 – Will expand the operation section and will consider your suggestion
>>
>> #3 – Will discuss with co-authors and respond accordingly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Krishna
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> Date: Tuesday, October 22, 2024 at 1:59 PM
>> To: Krishnaswamy Ananthamurthy (kriswamy) <kriswamy@cisco.com>
>> Cc: idr@ietf.org <idr@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability-00.txt
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually I have a 3rd comment which appeared after I hit the send button.
>>
>>
>>
>> Since you are really doing route type filtering here it seems to me that a much better suited mechanism for this would be an ORF message.
>>
>>
>>
>> In fact it is also much more flexible - you can freely use it during BGP sessions being already established without need for session reset to enable reception of new service/new NLRI types.
>>
>>
>>
>> A simple extension would be like Dynamic Route-Types support with most of the existing cfg/cli/show commands  or logging already in place.
>>
>>
>>
>> Think about it ....
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 6:08 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have two comments on this draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> #1
>>
>>
>>
>> Draft says:
>>
>>
>>
>> > This document defines an optional capability exchange of route types
>>
>> > per AFI/SAFI such that BGP speakers negotiate the route types
>>
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately BGP capabilities do not negotiate anything in BGP. Please search on number of discussions on this point on the list in the past.
>>
>>
>>
>> So I recommend you change this into:
>>
>>
>>
>> This document defines an optional capability exchange of route types per AFI/SAFI such that BGP speakers signal the route types
>>
>>
>>
>> #2
>>
>>
>>
>> Operational consideration is missing ...
>>
>>
>>
>> The scenario where this draft could play a role is that operator enables mix of services between two nodes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now this mix of services is not symmetrical.
>>
>>
>>
>> Today session does not come up and it is clear there is configuration mistake which needs to be corrected.
>>
>>
>>
>> With this draft session will happily come up and only "supported" services by a peer as expressed in supported route types for a given AFI/SAFI peer will be sent.
>>
>>
>>
>> How is this helping operator to consistently run the services ? If he would not count on exchanging those with the peer it would not be configured in the first place.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bigger question how would a router signal that only partial of configured services operate within say EVPN AF ?
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems that it would lead to really weak configuration habits in a style - enable all and see what get's exchanged.
>>
>>
>>
>> In other words having ability to know what services/route types my peers support for a given AFI/SAFI seems cool. But only informationally.
>>
>>
>>
>> Using this information for automated service propagation suppression/filtering is IMHO much less cool .. if at all a good thing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>> PS. And it may be interesting to see a section on how this may help to enable new route types dynamically on the existing running nodes and within existing established BGP sessions with many AFI/SAFIs. Of course assumption is that running operating systems on those nodes does support it already - but new services where not enable at boot time (BGP sessions establishment time).
>>
>>
>>
>> Where am I going with this PS note ...
>>
>>
>>
>> As we are really touching a new territory of signalling embedded route types (different NLRI formats) within single AFI/SAFI(s) perhaps this is good time to rethink it and write up Dynamic Route-Types proposal which could be signalled between nodes not really using BGP Capabilities semantics.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 12:58 AM Krishnaswamy Ananthamurthy (kriswamy) <kriswamy=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> IDR WG,
>>
>> We have posted a new draft outlining route type capability to address BGP session reset whenever new route type is added to address families like EVPN.
>>
>>
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability
>>
>> Request the WG to review and provide feedback/comments.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Krishna
>>
>>
>>
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>> Date: Monday, October 21, 2024 at 5:51 PM
>> To: Keyur Patel <keyur@arrcus.com>, Krishnaswamy Ananthamurthy (kriswamy) <kriswamy@cisco.com>, Lukas Krattiger (lkrattig) <lkrattig@cisco.com>, Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) <mankamis@cisco.com>
>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability-00.txt
>>
>> A new version of Internet-Draft
>> draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability-00.txt has been successfully
>> submitted by Krishnaswamy Ananthamurthy and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>
>> Name:     draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability
>> Revision: 00
>> Title:    BGP Route Type Capability
>> Date:     2024-10-21
>> Group:    Individual Submission
>> Pages:    5
>> URL:      https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability-00.txt
>> Status:   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability/
>> HTMLized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kriswamy-idr-route-type-capability
>>
>>
>> Abstract:
>>
>>    BGP supports different route types, which defines the encoding of
>>    Network Layer Reachability Information (NLRI) for a some of the
>>    Address Family Identifier (AFI)/Subsequent Address Family Identifier
>>    (SAFI) like Ethernet VPN (EVPN), Multicast VPN(MVPN) and so on.  BGP
>>    speaker will reset the BGP session if a given route type is not
>>    supported.  This document defines an Optional Capabilities to
>>    exchange the route types supported for a given AFI/SAFI such that
>>    session are not reset.
>>
>>
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>
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>>
>> --
>>
>> Donatas
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Donatas
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Donatas
>
>
>
> --
> Donatas
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