Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-ietf-grow-bgp-reject-05.txt> (Default EBGP Route Propagation Behavior Without Policies) to Proposed Standard

"John G. Scudder" <jgs@juniper.net> Fri, 28 April 2017 14:54 UTC

Return-Path: <jgs@juniper.net>
X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEAC512EB0A for <idr@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 28 Apr 2017 07:54:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.802
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.802 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oti16JGjTUCl for <idr@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 28 Apr 2017 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from NAM02-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam02on0108.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.38.108]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A61312EAE3 for <idr@ietf.org>; Fri, 28 Apr 2017 07:49:35 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=NlSEG+HijkZYPVgdzuQ/wc1k925pYggh/rLcXFfuURo=; b=UmVMKHKiky6SabL9m/vdaEuC1lz3LkxW/Eg5IAu2XuRZxTDjJkt7EDUwpBuCsC1tazQkmFVWqodsregQgHwsDJ0Dj8F0nwUSP/pdJHv3kKqRhNJcTdR18GAtLrDk2xUwPkSnaYRPXKkUB+hhUpvDulLpdQgSL6ZLrFCBVmFxfE4=
Authentication-Results: psg.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;psg.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net;
Received: from [172.29.36.228] (66.129.241.10) by SN2PR05MB2509.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.213.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1075.1; Fri, 28 Apr 2017 14:49:33 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\))
From: "John G. Scudder" <jgs@juniper.net>
In-Reply-To: <m2y3uk7h8p.wl-randy@psg.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 10:49:26 -0400
CC: Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com>, Interminable Discussion Room <idr@ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID: <2A42BCE5-D715-4D3E-B653-4702BA79760E@juniper.net>
References: <D4E812E8-AA7B-4EA2-A0AC-034AA8922306@juniper.net> <9047A5A0-ED12-43C2-B2C5-D2A71CBB4373@arrcus.com> <D51D46A7.A9732%acee@cisco.com> <0A49219D-E721-4DA8-B9BF-A55C2FA36FBE@puck.nether.net> <D95C67A4-AEBF-400B-A360-61C342FD6E4A@arrcus.com> <CA+b+ER=hq0=JNRfF8VA76_aqeRMBCeyQm5aTbapysXGTgaGS_g@mail.gmail.com> <CAL9jLaakVACiZKjk6XUi9mwkrCRsPqONUQmrTBCN7V43y+RtrQ@mail.gmail.com> <m2y3uk7h8p.wl-randy@psg.com>
To: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124)
X-Originating-IP: [66.129.241.10]
X-ClientProxiedBy: BN6PR12CA0018.namprd12.prod.outlook.com (10.168.222.28) To SN2PR05MB2509.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.213.18)
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 64d587c7-a619-46cb-3031-08d48e45c8d3
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant
X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(48565401081)(201703131423075)(201703031133081); SRVR:SN2PR05MB2509;
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; SN2PR05MB2509; 3:IMiw9J1u88Rs7yu1E219csTYgHV7rHbvlJ8P6enYzBfaE/5bSPvsJ6eaKWJ/SDS1RhtpsUwjSAlQjjt5rALV7hroOg6TQZ1MQe4gvqHKWb30YhA/3gBNO6vhkIRUmPA+ufMr2LZJ5RtKSO8apy/vxplW0kCjo+jrI7YY/JxQrpScvP91bt2L/XoJ+ezdQsletFc9jjV+rwyksZ4MoVLHwYxvP3AnD6gttN+h+JC+wu7Fq1IikBVeVbjQRwMH7ytBc/z8M/qxGhFmTUUpf/X47wlohR6uBJRO5ur8gZEyd8Pzc9wkriGBhcT5InK/dGNDWyGpcGDLA5lyFQPQk/uSplEG3rRVOLyKFmHbMuRJGHw=; 25:JGw2aHqFQHrp7w0v+sUJuQ+kUwRx7IZPtsK/OUnkq+RQYCFZqcAPnm0g6gcEcIqF0zm9mGQkq16sD697oQKiyuOIzAFNOFdqE+Rm7SSz+02MVXrQ0WedIle++xRvGcvkWta+jlLgTcH9hDSzNMLK0C2ijb2CsUaB83blLp58cadjprf0bhJqXjUHAKdgYQjWU6EodSXKAu5KoVUxjjJ8TQx20bFR7rrkzb068IJlLLu4wTCZ/gMMe358JE36l9KTrracRjllYtQL+1FxOFCgAl2Vuu277i4ZYBKTkzx5rjnkuGmCz5u4E2i1hW9XUpoTyaUNq2+C70mncD2vQNxiIyO450ND4OipbDgX7v+HjvY/BH5E96KGLQOBiTrk2BZ899pfPZ3s6x62npyrRIf6z0wyQDFzUHudXhYNI26lXqETxefT1nvG09jqvn7wKVFDTOwUEDNyaSSvzziBs0A+OpGGXw+q6HYVtTNlm4KGskM=
X-LD-Processed: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4,ExtAddr
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; SN2PR05MB2509; 31:T7jXChC0CHfcF8tuDaDjU+AtUYKtGghPFBUE8FK7MumgsyYmVDhgsRufspIqfJZ9NuPqJ8r/IkyRqrdx0G+SQCca58JpEliCiCNXxoeCQqldYqlLb9JdDEFNnCvm1Bsfjk5Mz6plk/ljdmEu/R+ahq0RZ5NKSAPuQtPo7g/yvAKuw7QWkZVDt+NF9X68zsBEh++HhVwrEfG5DCtEEhe33DqWETUzRadk20zLrMfOvIvKjqVTpUTTKeX/aCgpnIOp; 20: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
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <SN2PR05MB2509C3D320D80929E678B4BAAA130@SN2PR05MB2509.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-Test: UriScan:;
X-Exchange-Antispam-Report-CFA-Test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040450)(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(10201501046)(93006095)(93001095)(3002001)(6055026)(6041248)(20161123555025)(20161123560025)(201703131423075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123562025)(20161123558100)(20161123564025)(6072148); SRVR:SN2PR05MB2509; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:SN2PR05MB2509;
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; SN2PR05MB2509; 4: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
X-Forefront-PRVS: 029174C036
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4630300001)(6049001)(6009001)(39400400002)(39850400002)(39840400002)(39450400003)(39410400002)(39860400002)(377454003)(24454002)(86362001)(2906002)(25786009)(7736002)(189998001)(90366009)(47776003)(93886004)(33656002)(4326008)(66066001)(229853002)(81166006)(8676002)(82746002)(6666003)(230783001)(6916009)(8746002)(5660300001)(83716003)(50226002)(50466002)(2950100002)(76176999)(57306001)(36756003)(46406003)(97756001)(6246003)(42186005)(38730400002)(110136004)(53936002)(50986999)(54906002)(23726003)(305945005)(6116002)(3846002)(77096006)(6486002)(42262002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:SN2PR05MB2509; H:[172.29.36.228]; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en;
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: =?us-ascii?Q?1; SN2PR05MB2509; 23:TyljaUDUxOdJFHa3StLvQfWhbLtof+VxT/pMmSmLu?= =?us-ascii?Q?x1gpw4SAaZzHZtCl2Ai2KbStxWny7tnfmAgzDkg6//ZAyj4n4IqspG619sng?= =?us-ascii?Q?d8RBESQq5TmuoYMYylCl7/gFmuAzseAUo0rJm4lwUPycj7UUlyT3xWdhxU7f?= =?us-ascii?Q?lnrvrha06cdF4a3+0UVoCpOFPVTX4Nc+EvxDzfZCpVSKJyyoxoVwIzMKBkzH?= =?us-ascii?Q?ey+/riMUAyY5weX9zaaadP4aW/GL4IZlOaHDlFC46eWiXgbVOvfVrfI7bQsG?= =?us-ascii?Q?4JYFNooTGNKccdHJRSisid5gS51/goA3hgR8SvLMWVuF6y69rc+dupjmmWpT?= =?us-ascii?Q?uUpQ3CUSJruHnjyuB6UXqcI+u4OU879MBT84EteNaMscZD5S4W1+6rS8Wc+Y?= =?us-ascii?Q?BmjmtaiIJRrF85vIP6jbURN4n3hfDDFBTjcYHwns9aPR9fMt9/KHvD5Lfvrh?= =?us-ascii?Q?RkT0gZf0GSOYL1FyB2b/5Sy4govxpcnMultBICs9K1C04IgBvAb/HC3mUoFx?= =?us-ascii?Q?XPRmqLdgMDQyNkdT+WMV89Jhoq391TLmpqlpsLoCeakINHp7hdn7JNtni8/5?= =?us-ascii?Q?5e2ircrU0Tq4QXHMC0rAEWbP1CjDMoi6kgvZM/5xnEWgDJjYZREQ2lRUEbUL?= =?us-ascii?Q?c6NxJsoY3+ny+oFYPfUXw1dMhzRywZuUUyNAoyIujH+PgrqVu+CRqVwo0DMS?= =?us-ascii?Q?8xuZSXe79hpyD4UNFj7uU/nKrKkWG11hwbbvIWMbzCSiZ5csEiix1IrfUhpU?= =?us-ascii?Q?grJ88cPKBErLHx+et9O9hBw+5/ldOOGhd0zAEMaTxSaXSdza5eE6D8nHbLfs?= =?us-ascii?Q?eHxBPeodXHwg1FCltfbSFAzFXDhqMdVgWPmNiYJzPI+zmWozhQMbgmCnIFcC?= =?us-ascii?Q?szJDFe7Zgq3DKMHK6Rc6xMbk0IbePckyZgvoFydNWtrwMLE5emhdnkI1ZjOQ?= =?us-ascii?Q?jOf7be3u0CDHYplbCua2aWqYq4xJ7ERc4KrgF5U/tRySOipBSX5g3Ciwsnsl?= =?us-ascii?Q?KzNGwoYOZyYTZitV2XY94BvlApZcI3KMI0wJi6ydMqjpHPamLEv8c16AUgjH?= =?us-ascii?Q?VOVceeZ/4bFOxs0On9XzKgnm+tUOB2lGxGznqK83HOL2dvKxTipzQT4NjdSS?= =?us-ascii?Q?rfPYdtVZpGll6Rn40TWYPrn64iVbcNfpopqPvYnCciYijzeXgXTYRmA0i0j/?= =?us-ascii?Q?EG8O6mBBQ7vJLO3rzw9m9ozYvKBTwaEEl+ccbdEJ7Jgcgh+wKaZlCmKLLQ/r?= =?us-ascii?Q?3IFw7BMvaxhoy10cdbiLUUJbpggIKMFg00khQ0VDz79ff11we55V2kY3zEPz?= =?us-ascii?Q?zUsLYQG3/CobOxDhrh3v+8=3D?=
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; SN2PR05MB2509; 6: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; 5:Uybfu6VnhaxVQHk8QVrcdSgPslHn0ASjbiIQJc80/A2WQuAPM/zIgDvySz8ZMdEhB4CD03aou+M20OiV/xBU2mUiKFyR2Yv2R/4LJ9vz3n0k1VCxJhsCJPj4Evcomf7uc/a7Sgrw7gzAac5Tk8+Rtw==; 24:hj6oUlfsVT1bDMRmLkuJghTToufL7mRg7MjPbkBuTXlNeDpixpgj83ozyEEu2hqtQQRcZeQR1SmFmHhu2GYptwiTGsQhWXILls2vf4tig7U=
SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:99
SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM
X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; SN2PR05MB2509; 7:ogYUN7AHIg2zOactyB7u4CV35oHPRjqB531nR1lQlVEsQ019bj+bFuJUKBSxLt+blnHAGBq/5nU1a908wwhkTp1fIE8to6yihdc3T44Nvu3W9xXkKYsPLE9C2RumZPi2nqUEnZ/IK9mdBiGFlRxGY2yjGc0CfsRCa2cScV6b54CXZOvsGsJNNEwA68sRG+9dKxdmljUtQVCn3pM02SE/fOG1pG5VG0823dkuvj8E8KHgLhElLki+Ss2C/Y4IM26LMbemnCLIQ6BL4E0vC4SXM0fnXIZ2I9yNjnF2Kf+gTa7Pp17OIhQkMae6oqyI4dWkKBABLay4i82g0BluxVtlIQ==
X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Apr 2017 14:49:33.3128 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN2PR05MB2509
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/idr/UOrm0vlXn0yvSmt31_d88la4NcY>
Subject: Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-ietf-grow-bgp-reject-05.txt> (Default EBGP Route Propagation Behavior Without Policies) to Proposed Standard
X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/idr/>
List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 14:54:20 -0000

On Apr 28, 2017, at 10:13 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>; wrote:
> is there a big enough win to break POLA?

(Principle of Least Astonishment.)

Yes, that's the main question this thread has been debating, thanks for summarizing. Another way it's been put is to ask whether the cost/benefit analysis holds up. Violation of POLA is on the "cost" side of the ledger. One of the arguments that it should not be considered to be a very high cost is that there are ways to mitigate POLA with careful implementation; some examples have been discussed. I guess you might then add a "designing good software is hard" line item to the "cost" side.

Do you have an opinion as to the answer to your well-summarized question?

--John