Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FE29C14F69E; Thu, 20 Feb 2025 12:06:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.802 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.802 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MVGuE0_xyDOL; Thu, 20 Feb 2025 12:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppa2.lax.icann.org (ppa2.lax.icann.org [192.0.33.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DF0CC14F60E; Thu, 20 Feb 2025 12:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX112-E2-CO-1.pexch112.icann.org (out.mail.icann.org [64.78.33.7]) by ppa2.lax.icann.org (8.18.1.2/8.18.1.2) with ESMTPS id 51KK61dS028203 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 20 Feb 2025 20:06:02 GMT Received: from MBX112-W2-CO-2.pexch112.icann.org (10.226.41.130) by MBX112-W2-CO-2.pexch112.icann.org (10.226.41.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.1544.11; Thu, 20 Feb 2025 12:06:00 -0800 Received: from MBX112-W2-CO-2.pexch112.icann.org ([10.226.41.130]) by MBX112-W2-CO-2.pexch112.icann.org ([10.226.41.130]) with mapi id 15.02.1544.011; Thu, 20 Feb 2025 12:06:00 -0800 From: Amanda Baber To: John Scudder , idr chairs , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-bgp-car@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ext] Implementation requirements embedded in bgp-car [was: Re: Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-idr-bgp-car-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)] Thread-Index: AQHbg9Lcwq2x4Ej5GEKICPaPUMy/zQ== Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 20:06:00 +0000 Message-ID: <863CA054-89A5-4912-8AC7-76CA78CA7DB3@iana.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.63.22070801 x-originating-ip: [192.0.32.234] x-source-routing-agent: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha256; boundary="B_3822897959_3760937206" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1057,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.68.34 definitions=2025-02-20_08,2025-02-20_02,2024-11-22_01 Message-ID-Hash: NJNPFU2FCVDTHXAATNT7BDD7VGNUZTTE X-Message-ID-Hash: NJNPFU2FCVDTHXAATNT7BDD7VGNUZTTE X-MailFrom: amanda.baber@iana.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-idr.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The IESG , Bruno Decraene , Clarence Filsfils , "luay.jalil" , "yitai.syc" , "jul738@att.com" , Keyur Patel , Hares Susan , Roman Danyliw X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5BIdr=5D_Re=3A_=5BExt=5D_Implementation_requirements_embedded_in_?= =?utf-8?q?bgp-car_=5Bwas=3A_Re=3A_Roman_Danyliw=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-i?= =?utf-8?q?dr-bgp-car-14=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29=5D?= List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --B_3822897959_3760937206 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3822897959_4089646544" --B_3822897959_4089646544 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, all, =20 A note about this: when IANA is asked to use the RFC 7120 process for Speci= fication Required registries, we ask for expert approval as well as chair an= d AD approval. (7120 doesn=E2=80=99t mention this, but 7120bis-00 does.) The exper= t is going to have to review the request during IETF Last Call, so we=E2=80=99re t= rying to avoid a situation where they have to say, =E2=80=9CI wouldn=E2=80=99t have agre= ed to this, but it=E2=80=99s already in the registry.=E2=80=9D =20 Would it be clear enough that the expert doesn=E2=80=99t have to check for two im= plementations if it=E2=80=99s an RFC 7120 early allocation request? =20 Thanks, Amanda =C2=A0=C2=A0 =20 From: John Scudder Date: Thursday, February 20, 2025 at 10:56=E2=80=AFAM To: idr chairs , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft= -ietf-idr-bgp-car@ietf.org" Cc: The IESG , "Dhananjaya Rao (dhrao)" , B= runo Decraene , Clarence Filsfils , "luay.jalil" , "yitai.syc" , "jul738@att.com" , James Guichard , Ketan Talaulikar , Keyur Patel , "rainsword.wang@huawei.com" , "i= m8327@att.com" , Hares Susan , Roman Danyli= w Subject: [Ext] Implementation requirements embedded in bgp-car [was: Re: Ro= man Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-idr-bgp-car-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMEN= T)] =20 Hi All,=20 =20 As part of the discussion of Roman=E2=80=99s DISCUSS point at today=E2=80=99s IESG meet= ing, Roman raised an additional concern. Sections 10.4.1 and 10.4.2 include = the requirement that the Designated Expert "Check IDR implementation report = for two implementations=E2=80=9D. Roman pointed out that the document category is = Experimental, the implication being that a two-implementation requirement to= obtain a code point for an experiment seems excessive. =20 Now that I come to think of it, the requirement even feels a little excessi= ve if the document were Standards Track. It puts the applicant for the code = point in a bind: it=E2=80=99s often hard to get implementations written if we don=E2= =80=99t have code points. But the requirement in this document says we can=E2=80=99t h= ave a code point unless there are two implementations.=20 =20 Maybe part of the answer to this concern is that we have RFC 7120 =E2=80=94 it al= lows early allocation from Specification Required registries. Presumably, th= e =E2=80=9Ctwo implementations=E2=80=9D rule would not be applied during the early alloc= ation process any more than it is for other registries. (Because RFC 7120 on= ly applies to Specification Required "where an RFC is used as the stable ref= erence=E2=80=9D, for any non-RFC track specification, Early Allocation wouldn=E2=80=99t = be available, and the DE would be obliged to insist on two implementations.) =20 That leaves the residual question of whether the IDR two-implementation rul= e is appropriate for Experimental documents. I=E2=80=99m not aware of IDR having e= ver grappled with that question; the wiki [1] only says, "IDR generally requ= ires at least two interoperable implementations of a draft before it is adva= nced to RFC=E2=80=9D.=20 =20 I tend to think it is OK for IDR to require two implementations for even an= Experimental RFC, but you should be aware that if you do this, you are crea= ting a precedent, so please be sure it=E2=80=99s what you want. If you don=E2=80=99t wan= t to create this precedent, you could remain silent (remove those two bullet= points). =20 I=E2=80=99ll wait for a go-ahead from one of the chairs before proceeding with pu= blication to ensure this question can be considered. (We still are waiting f= or Roman to clear his DISCUSS in any case.) =20 Thanks, =20 =E2=80=94John =20 [1] https://wiki.ietf.org/group/idr [wiki.ietf.org] --B_3822897959_4089646544 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi John, all,

 

A note= about this: when IANA is asked to use the RFC 7120 process for Specificatio= n Required registries, we ask for expert approval as well as chair and AD ap= proval. (7120 doesn=E2=80=99t mention this, but 7120bis-00 does.) The expert is go= ing to have to review the request during IETF Last Call, so we=E2=80=99re trying t= o avoid a situation where they have to say, =E2=80=9CI wouldn=E2=80=99t have agreed to t= his, but it=E2=80=99s already in the registry.=E2=80=9D

 

Would it be clear enough that the e= xpert doesn=E2=80=99t have to check for two implementations if it=E2=80=99s an RFC 7120 = early allocation request?

 =

Thanks,

Amanda =C2=A0=C2=A0<= o:p>

 

Fr= om: John Scudder <j= gs=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Thursday, February 20, 2= 025 at 10:56=E2=80=AFAM
To: idr chairs <idr-chairs@ietf.org>, &quo= t;idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-idr-bgp-car@ietf= .org" <draft-ietf-idr-bgp-car@ietf.org>
Cc: The IESG &l= t;iesg@ietf.org>, "Dhananjaya Rao (dhrao)" <dhrao@cisco.com&= gt;, Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, Clarence Filsfils <= ;cfilsfil@cisco.com>, "luay.jalil" <luay.jalil@verizon.com&g= t;, "yitai.syc" <yitai.syc@alibaba-inc.com>, "jul738@at= t.com" <jul738@att.com>, James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futu= rewei.com>, Ketan Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.com>, Keyur Patel &= lt;keyur@arrcus.com>, "rainsword.wang@huawei.com" <rainsword= .wang@huawei.com>, "im8327@att.com" <im8327@att.com>, Har= es Susan <shares@ndzh.com>, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
S= ubject: [Ext] Implementation requirements embedded in bgp-car [was: Re: = Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-idr-bgp-car-14: (with DISCUSS and COMM= ENT)]

 

Hi All,

 

As = part of the discussion of Roman=E2=80=99s DISCUSS point at today=E2=80=99s IESG meeting,= Roman raised an additional concern. Sections 10.4.1 and 10.4.2 include the = requirement that the Designated Expert "Check IDR implementation report= for two implementations=E2=80=9D. Roman pointed out that the document category is= Experimental, the implication being that a two-implementation requirement t= o obtain a code point for an experiment seems excessive.

 

Now that I come to think o= f it, the requirement even feels a little excessive if the document were Sta= ndards Track. It puts the applicant for the code point in a bind: it=E2=80=99s oft= en hard to get implementations written if we don=E2=80=99t have code points. But t= he requirement in this document says we can=E2=80=99t have a code point unless the= re are two implementations. 

 

Maybe part of the answer to this concern is that = we have RFC 7120 =E2=80=94 it allows early allocation from Specification Required = registries. Presumably, the =E2=80=9Ctwo implementations=E2=80=9D rule would not be appl= ied during the early allocation process any more than it is for other regist= ries. (Because RFC 7120 only applies to Specification Required "where a= n RFC is used as the stable reference=E2=80=9D, for any non-RFC track specificatio= n, Early Allocation wouldn=E2=80=99t be available, and the DE would be obliged to = insist on two implementations.)

 

That leaves the residual question of whether the ID= R two-implementation rule is appropriate for Experimental documents. I=E2=80=99m n= ot aware of IDR having ever grappled with that question; the wiki [1] only s= ays, "IDR generally requires at least two interoperable implementations= of a draft before it is advanced to RFC=E2=80=9D. 

=

 

=

I tend to think it is OK for IDR= to require two implementations for even an Experimental RFC, but you should= be aware that if you do this, you are creating a precedent, so please be su= re it=E2=80=99s what you want. If you don=E2=80=99t want to create this precedent, you c= ould remain silent (remove those two bullet points).

 

I=E2=80=99ll wait for a go-ahead fro= m one of the chairs before proceeding with publication to ensure this questi= on can be considered. (We still are waiting for Roman to clear his DISCUSS i= n any case.)

 

Thanks,

 

=E2=80=94John

 

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