Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-spaghetti-idr-bgp-sendholdtimer-05.txt
Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> Thu, 04 August 2022 18:33 UTC
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2022 20:33:18 +0200
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To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: Ben Cox <ben=40benjojo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>, "idr@ietf. org" <idr@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-spaghetti-idr-bgp-sendholdtimer-05.txt
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Hello Jeff, Just to clarify a few things as I have a feeling that they were not too well described by me. > Long run we could use BGP PING and BFD and retire KEEPALIVEs. > > As much as I'm a fan of BFD, it is unlikely to become pervasive for all > situations where BGP gets used. Also, BFD is insufficiently coupled to the > BGP session state. By analogy, LDP still has keepalives in its TCP session > even though it has a separate hello layer. > What I meant by "retire" was not in general spec/IETF wise. I meant to disable/suspend only a given session when both BFD and BGP PING would operate. I don't think think the op message helps us here either. The whole point is > the connection is unidirectionally stalled and the upstream wants to take > action on that. > Yes ... I mentioned OP MSG to highlight that BGP level PING would be very different from it - not in any form or shape to bring it as a candidate for this discussion. Where could this go into BGP? Ideally, a clean update to the PDU format. > As a hack? As two uint32's embedded in the Marker, capability negotiated. > > The better question, does this help the situation in question? > In my opinion, no. > Interesting ... Wouldn't it test BGP -- TCP --- NETWORK -- TCP --- BGP path in a bi-dir style ? Wouldn't it likely detect more "stuck" elements ? Your below paragraph rather confirms that it would detect a stuck peer. > In a "ping" or "bidirectional check" mode, the general idea becomes, "I > sent > you seq# X and I want to eventually see this come back to me". > > To get the echo reply, the echo must first work its way from the sender's > TCP send buffer, across the network, through the receiver's TCP receive > buffer, into the BGP, then the full loop again through their send and your > receive buffers. You'd also require a message to message to piggyback the > reply to. When there are pending updates, it's easy. Otherwise, you could > force another message like keepalive. > Note I am proposing a new BGP MESSAGE - BGP PING MESSAGE. Not to piggyback in the Marker. > (Yes, arguably you could do a less frequent "ping", but now you're also > adding another set of optional timer procedures.) > > By analogy to BFD, you're getting the result of BFD Echo mode rather than > BFD Async mode - and it's likely far longer than is desired for this use > case. > Yes this came to me too, but it would not be BGP level so I dismissed it. > Side reading, some thinking on timestamping BGP updates: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-litkowski-idr-bgp-timestamp-00 Thx > [1] Discussions with BGP developers over the years about various upgrade > scenarios often comes back to the fact that the holdtimer is > unidirectional. > During an upgrade where the TCP and BGP RIB state is maintained, it's > useful > to simply pause consuming incoming routing state and do nothing other than > send your keepalives. The challenge for this discussion is that this > "feature" is indistinguishable from bugs observed for sessions that are > stuck for too long. > Yes .. and instead hacking what's working fine say in 99% of deployments give an option to check BGP peer liveness by BGP level PING. Again with all of the above discussion I am yet to see a solid prove of the seriousness of the issue. Best, Robert.
- [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-spa… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Ben Cox
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Jeff Tantsura
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… heasley
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Donatas Abraitis
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… heasley
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Donatas Abraitis
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… heasley
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… heasley
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… UTTARO, JAMES
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… heasley
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Claudio Jeker
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Claudio Jeker
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… UTTARO, JAMES
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Ben Cox
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… UTTARO, JAMES
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… heasley
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… heasley
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Claudio Jeker
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Thomas Mangin
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… heasley
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… heasley
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… heasley
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… heasley
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… tom petch
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… tom petch
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-spag… Robert Raszuk