[Idr] minutes
Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> Mon, 15 August 2005 16:26 UTC
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From: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net>
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Subject: [Idr] minutes
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Folks, The revised minutes have been posted (see below). Yakov. ------- Forwarded Message Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:21:20 -0400 From: Rebecca Bunch <rbunch@foretec.com> To: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> Subject: Re: IETF-63 Proceedings Submission Your proceeding submissions have been posted, please review them on line and send any corrections to proceedings@ietf.org. The deadline for submitting corrections is Monday, September 19, 2005 at 17:00 ET. https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/proceeding_interim.cgi?meeting_num=63 Yakov Rekhter wrote: >Hi, > >Attached are the IDR WG minutes. > >Yakov. >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >IDR WG Minutes 2005.08.04 >------------------------- > >Doc status >see ppt for info > >Danny McPherson to finish Confed implementation report in one month. > >Geoff Houston to complete the implementation report for 4-octet AS >number space. > >New MIB editor see draft > >------------------------- >Tony Li AS Hop count Attribute > >see ppt for info >Essence: Add TTL to each prefix, decrement at AS boundary >Drop route when TTL hits zero >Transitive attribute > >Alt: Distribution Lists >List contains ASs that can rx and cannot exclusion > >NOTE: NO_EXPORT and AS_HOPCOUNT can be combined > >Geoff Houston: is NO_EXPORT dropped or continued when combined? > >NOTE: Can scope 'anycast' > >Geoff Houston: when aspath prepending, is that expressed in the HOP_COUNT? >Tony Li: Decremented by one always > >Sue Hares: Two more ASPATHS per route? How does scaling work? >Tony Li: In the worst case, when setting up a list you can have an >arbitrary number in incl or excl list? > >Sue Hares: Is order semantics true but, > >Yakov Rekhter: An ASPATH cannot carry all AS in the internet as it >would exceed the maximum size of the BGP Update message. > >Tony Li: An avg ASPATH has ~4 AS' in it so, we are going to have on avg >roughly two X > >Sue Hares: Why do you say proxy usage is diffficult in Dist List case? >TTL is lighter but, why choose between two? Might have both. > >Tony Li: From an implementors POV, it is easier to do one and not two > >Yakov Rekhter: The increase in number of AS' per route is not a practical >issue > >Geoff Houston: At the edge, it may work but, topology is dense and we nee > >Jason Schiller (UUNET): Scope - useful in subconfeds ... need a >separate counter? > >Tony Li: Want to see draft first. Technically what is required is a >separate attribute but, look almost identical > >Geoff Houston: When comparing the two mechanisms need to look at "what is >going on." Distribution lists require complete knowledge of topology. >Problem is that you cannot insure that they do not leak. HOPCOUNT >does not have 'knowledge' problem but, focuses on accuracy. > >Sue Hares: Inclusion requires enumeration but exclusion does not > >Geoff Houston: HOPCOUNT allows more specifics w/ a boundary. >Advocates HOPCOUNT > >Pedro Roque: No productive compare the two. Want to select upstream >provider w/ targeted ext comms. HOPCOUNT might prevent this >technique. Most common TE technique; customers preferring transit AS' >per prefix. Not applicable for transit exit scenario. Two issues and >solutions are orthogonal but, neither solution is devalued. > >Chris Morrow (UUNET): proxy means "I can add" and/or "I can delete" > >Tony Li: Yes and not violate > >Chris Morrow: Will it get used if provider ignores or removes > >Yakov Rekhter: Who is entity that benefits from this? Which SP. > >Tony Li: Table size reduction is goal. One SP adds does the work but, gets >no benefits. Altruism or hope of it is a good reason. > >Geoff Houston: Zhang drafts in GROW show that altruism is bunk instead >self-interest. Most UPDATEs come from lower tier points. Most >computation happens at lower level of peering .. therefore, small >folks get most thrash. If "I" do this, I help my problem ... >therefore altruism is there for the folks that use it and tag it. > >David Ward: Affect Hop count? > >Tony Li: Not significantly as it would be longer prefixes. > >Enke Chen: Can we inject an AS numer as 'signature' of who adds attribute? > >May be added to draft. No comments > >------------------------- >Zhang Renhai Entire Route Reflect > >Comments held until after Walton's draft >see ppt for info > >------------------------- >Walton Add Paths >Alvaro Retana (Cisco) presenter. >see ppt for info > >NOTE: RFC 3107 must be updated > >------------------------- >Walton Oscillation Stop >Alvaro Retana (Cisco) presenter >info in same ppt as "Add Paths" > >George Swallow: What is frequency of oscillation? > >Alvaro Retana: dependent on update timer setting (MIN ADVERT INTERVAL) > >Combined questions for both draft authors: >Danny (unaffiliated) - We are increasing and decreasing table size. >Walton's draft is more general and flexible then Zhang's. > >Alvaro Retana: Most of increase of table size is internal to an AS (almost all ) > >Zhang: I don't understand question. > >Zhang: Walton's draft is more general. > >Alvaro Retana: NLRI will be bigger but, no impact on packing. > >Gargi (Cisco): Zhang's draft - must specify that you explicitly WD >when a nexthop changes or how to announce new NH? How do you delete >the first NH? > >Zhang: If NH changes, just add it. To solve the problem there will >taken offline to email. > >Paul Jakma: If in ECMP case, what AS sequence? How to pass multiple >paths to a legacy speaker? > >Alvaro Retana: Cap advert defines who can learn add_path. Other >applications like EBGP ECMP and propagating multiple paths will have >to be addressed. > >Alvaro Retana: Constrained scope. > >Pedro Roque: Although you say impact of deployment is localized. >We need a better understanding of what impact will be. For each >route prefix, path attrs in Adj RIB Out. Generally announcement, >is only when Adj-RIB-Out changes. What is expectation of propagating >changes when inbound updates would cause outbound content. What are >consequences? Size of Adj-RIB-Out? What is key of Adj-RIB-Out? etc. > >Alvaro Retana: Spec says send on path. Change is that we would have >tracking of two or more paths. > >Yakov Rekhter: We can have as many ad hoc solutions as we want or >a more general solution. We, as a group, should decide on a more >general solution. We should look at potential new functionality >once we have more than one path being advertised. > >Suggestion is that the authors of three proposals should find common >solution to all problems that WG would like to address. A mailing >list will be set up to discuss this problem and solution. On the >IDR mailing list please identify problems. > >Yakov Rekhter: Do we need requirements document? > >Ward: No, absolutely not. > >------------------------- >Dubois PM Reqmts > >see ppt for info > >Yakov Rekhter: Send note to list on whether or not we should take as a WG doc. > >Dubois: Earlier solution was not meeting requirements and there are >many possible solutions. We need a solution that fits the >requirements; we are not encouraging one solution over another: > >Ted Seely (Sprint): Why not weight traffic away from peer or >interface? There are other techniques that don't require change to >protocol. > >Ruediger Volk: I lose traffic when I do this technique. > >Ruediger Volk: The convergence problem I see is due to the previous issue >of config change. > >Jason Schiller (UUNET): Is there a hard requirement that this does >not require a config change ... taken to the list. > >------------------------- >Hares Dynamic Confed AS > >Not requested to be WG item. >see ppt for info > >Roque: I would assume that you would want to do restoration in a >seamless way. What is motivation to make failure restoration a >visible outside the confederation? > >Sue Hares: Goal is to not drop the peering session. Therefore, the purpose >is policy rerouting wants to 'hang by itself.' If I drop out of the >AS confed, I would have had to drop the session. > >Roque: Why not just tunnel back? > >Sue Hares: No IGP connectivity and tunnels ran into problems. >Sue Hares: will send scenarios to list > >Chandra Appanna (Cisco): I think you need a few more failsafes. >Resend is a MUST, and some mechanisms is nec. that moved did not >suddenly change. Need to resend routes due to policy change potential. > >Sue Hares: We have added failsafe. We delayed resend, it would be abnormal >to send all routes if nothing changed. Will send scenario in email. > >Gargi (Cisco): Are there any mechanisms in mind for NO resend if ones >moves from one confed to another? > >------------------------- >Multisession update - Chandra Appanna > >See ppt for info > >Added flexibility for any capability code to cause/create multiple sessions > >No comments > >------------------------- >Kapoor SSA - Gargi, Scott Wainner > >see ppt for info > >------------------------- >Kapoor Tunnel SAFI > >combined w/ SSA preso, same ppt > >Gargi did technical side and changes to docs: > >more TLVs to express encap: > >MPLS, IPsec, GRE in IPsec, L2TPv3 in IPsec > >added application scenarios: MPLS over IP tunnels > >Scott presented motivations > >Combined comments: > >Sue Hares: Can you explain status of this mechanism w/in each of these >groups (on referenced drafts)? What is approved, required, etc. We >need to see something from those chairs that the ref'ed drafts are >"blessed." > >Scott Wainner: Walked through > >Gargi: We have chicken and egg to get this done. Encoding first or >formats first? > >Intro work on L3VPN list. > >Yakov Rekhter: Very reasonable model where must have both WGs review >dependent docs. > >Bill Fenner: Must work w/ other WG for encoding. > >Yakov Rekhter: Two possible models - first: semantics or encoding need to >be done in L3VPN; second: L2/L3VPN WGs tell us semantics and IDR produces >encoding. > >Rahul Aggarwal: there were two problems in the past: 1) Motivation wasn't >clear 2) Authors of draft-raggarwa-ppvpn-tunnel-encap and authors >of the drafts presented at this IDR meeting were unable to come up >with a joint proposal. Suggested that since motivations are clearer >now, this work should be discussed again in the L3VPN WG. > >Pedro Roque: Disagree w/ motivations. IGP can provide reachability. I think >you use BGP as signaling protocol which is not a problem. But, >presentation states that BGP needs to know this information. Please >clarify the layering split. > >Yakov Rekhter: Can this move to L3VPN > >SOLUTION: Joint Last Call in IDR and L3VPN. > >------------------------- >SAFI Space Partition >In reply to Jeff Hass email on list. > >Bill Fenner to send notes on how to alloc SAFI space. > >Proposal: take private use space and turn it into reserved and >perhaps 16 or so as private use. Reserved is reserved so we can >decide later on FCFS or otherwise managed. > >Are folks using private space? Do we need to skip some? > >Yakov Rekhter: How long will it take to use up first come first served? > >Bill Fenner: We should be able to straighten this out quickly and IANA is >keeping up. 30 days deadline. > >Danny McPherson: Needs to be uniform across all WGs and Areas. Make >it IETF aligned. > >Pedro Roque: I do not want to see vendor specific space go away altogether. >There is much more usage than one case alluded to. Today is only >practical alternative, cannot be locked out. Can it be shown to work >before we assume 30 days? > >Bill Fenner: There are publications on these agreements and promises that >it will be done in 30 days. FCFS is you get it now .... no draft, no >wait. > >Chandra: Cannot get rid of vendor space. AF/SAFI has lost meaning and >is a way to differentiate addrs between two peers. Just need opaque >space that we can use between two peers. > >Gargi: Must have vendor space perhaps reduced is ok. Second, IANA is >faster but, it seems to required Routing ADs having lunch w/ IANA. > >Yakov Rekhter: IANA must have strict 30 days max as rule. > >Bill Fenner: We are working on this and the stats show that 30 days >is being met. > > > ------- End of Forwarded Message _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
- [Idr] minutes Yakov Rekhter