Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the IETF108] New Version Notification for draft-wang-idr-rd-orf-01.txt
Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> Fri, 07 August 2020 11:50 UTC
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:50:43 +0200
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To: Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn>
Cc: wangw36@chinatelecom.cn, Keyur Patel <keyur@arrcus.com>, idr <idr@ietf.org>,
Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the IETF108] New
Version Notification for draft-wang-idr-rd-orf-01.txt
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ORF messages are p2p. They are not transitive. There is no such thing like smuggling messages around even if they are re-originated on RRs. Thx, R. On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:53 AM Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn> wrote: > Hi, Robert: > > > > The updated encoding of RD-ORF message includes the originator of routes > (source PE). > > Once the “source PE” receives such message, it can log this event, or > notify the customer further via traditional “BGP Prefix Limit” mechanism. > > If necessary, we can add such consideration later in the draft. > > > > Best Regards > > > > Aijun Wang > > China Telecom > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk [mailto:robert@raszuk.net] > *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2020 4:39 PM > *To:* Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn> > *Cc:* wangw36@chinatelecom.cn; Keyur Patel <keyur@arrcus.com>om>; idr < > idr@ietf.org>gt;; Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the IETF108] New > Version Notification for draft-wang-idr-rd-orf-01.txt > > > > Hi Aijun, > > > > The reason for RTC is to propagate information which routes are needed - > between PE & RR or between domains. The goal is to even further scale the > VPN route distribution. > > > > RTC is not defined to signal which routes should be dropped due to low > resources. Very fundamental difference. > > > > Prefix ORF in general is very rarely used. Reason being that it is > normally only applicable for eBGP sessions and no peer wants to honor > someone else's filters. For IBGP prefix ORF IMO should be forbidden by the > spec. > > > > Knob on RRs can be very simple: drop or stop propagating to any PE VPNv4 > or v6 routes if number of routes with given RD exceeds say 1 million or X. > > > > And such 1 million or 1K or xyz can be based on expected number of VPN > routes from any L3VPN customer in his VPN. I do hope when customers sign > the agreement you ask that question. > > > > > Back pressure to the source can eliminate the root of overflowed VPN > routes. > > > > The problem is that you are not defining back pressure to the source. You > are defining back pressure to your own devices. If you were to define a > message which would tell the originator of the routes (customer CE) to stop > or which would bring down the session to the CE which is polluting the VPN > space I would perhaps carefully review it and maybe even support it. > > > > But you are proposing a tool which just breaks VPNs without signalling it > to customers. That is not acceptable - very sorry. > > > > Many thx, > R. > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:20 AM Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn> > wrote: > > Hi, Robert: > > According to your logic, what the reason for the ORF、RTC mechanism exist? > The extra info that they filter can all be locally dropped. > > Regarding the knob on RR, how RR know which routes it should drop by > itself? > > > > Back pressure to the source can eliminate the root of overflowed VPN > routes. > > > > > > Best Regards > > > > Aijun Wang > > China Telecom > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk [mailto:robert@raszuk.net] > *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2020 3:45 PM > *To:* Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn> > *Cc:* wangw36@chinatelecom.cn; Keyur Patel <keyur@arrcus.com>om>; idr < > idr@ietf.org>gt;; Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the IETF108] New > Version Notification for draft-wang-idr-rd-orf-01.txt > > > > > > > Using RD-ORF can control the VPN routes limits within each VRF. > > > > If you really want to create such inconsistency within any VPN you can ask > your vendor for a knob to locally drop on inbound received routes with > specific RD. That also can be fully automated by setting the auto trigger > threshold on a per VRF. > > > > The inbound drop is a very low cost operation so will be of no CPU issue. > > > > You will then be able to use such *local* knob as an additional safety > fuse. > > > > There is however no need to propagate this anywhere nor to pass it from RR > to upstream PEs. Such knob can exist on RRs as well if you even further > want to completely break your user's happiness. > > > > I see no need and I stay by original position that this proposed protocol > extension is a bad one and I do not support it to proceed any further nor > to be adopted as an IDR WG document. > > > > Kind regards, > > Robert > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 3:20 AM Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn> > wrote: > > Hi, Robert and Gyan: > > > > The problem is similar as that for “BGP Maximum-Prefix” and should be > control plane related issue. > > No matter what’s the capabilities of the router, there is always the roof > for its performance. > > And in large network deployment, there still exist the possibility that > one or some PEs are misconfigured/attacked etc. > > We should not only control the PE behavior at network edge(for example, > using BGP Maximum-Prefix feature), but also need to consider the risk > within the network. > > > > RTC is one kind of method to control the routes propagation within the > network, but it is not enough. > > RTC can filter the VRF routes it doesn’t want to, but it can’t suppress > the VPN routes it wants. Using RD-ORF can control the VPN routes limits > within each VRF. > > > > > > Best Regards > > > > Aijun Wang > > China Telecom > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk [mailto:robert@raszuk.net] > *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2020 7:05 AM > *To:* Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn>cn>; wangw36@chinatelecom.cn > *Cc:* Keyur Patel <keyur@arrcus.com>om>; idr <idr@ietf.org>rg>; Gyan Mishra < > hayabusagsm@gmail.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the IETF108] New > Version Notification for draft-wang-idr-rd-orf-01.txt > > > > Folks, > > > > I think we need to step back and first understand what is the problem. > > > > Statements "overload of the PE" .. "overwhelmed PE" etc ... are really not > helpful. Neither are sufficient to justify this work based on the statement > "we need more then one solution" etc .... > > > > What exactly is being considered a problem here ? > > > > 1. Running out of RAM in control plane ? > > 2. Running out of CPU in control plane ? > > 3. Not being able to import VPNv4 routes to a VRFs due to not enough > control plane memory ? > > 4. Not being able to import VPNv4 routes to a VRFs due to not enough data > plane memory ? > > > > And please do not say "all of the above" as it will also not much > productive. > > > > While stating the above please indicate which vendors have been tested and > do not meet feature wise sufficient protection. > > > > Many thx, > > R. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:50 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 7:29 AM Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn> > wrote: > > Hi, Gyan and Robert: > > > > Maximum Prefix Limit is one method to control the routes between PE and > CE, but we should not depend only on it. > > > > You can use maximum prefix along with an inbound filter prefix list or > as path or community match for whatever style routing control desired. > > > > From a PE standpoint you have not explained why using the per VRF prefix > limit to limit the size of the per VRF rib. Please explain why that does > not solve the problem. > > > > RD-ORF can limit the influence scope of misbehavior PE as small as > possible. > > > > I don’t think you want to use RD-ORF as that would drop all routes > from a PE and RTC does the job well only advertising RTs imported on the > PE. I think it would be rare if ever that anyone would ever filter on RD. > > > > RT-ORF can suppress the routes from unwanted VRFs, but can’t suppress the > overflow routes in VRF that it is interested. > > > > > > > > More details responses are inline below. > > Aijun Wang > > China Telecom > > > > On Aug 6, 2020, at 18:02, Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Robert > > > > I am in agreement as you stated that most service providers from my > experience use the per VRF prefix limit to protect resources. Problem > solved as you said 20+ years ago. > > > > That is a general rule of thumb for any service providers to perform due > diligence on their PE memory resource carving per VRF and set it > appropriately based on platform and total number of VRFs to account for. > > > > Problem solved on the SP end. > > > > On the customer end, they can also use the maximum prefix peer command as > well to prevent flood of routes in case of unwanted advertisements from > unintentional VRF leaking by providers. > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Gyan > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 5:49 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote: > > Hi Gyan, > > > > Thank you for your comments - all very valid observations. > > > > Just to perhaps clarify one thing ... Problem authors are attempting to > address - the way I understand it - is that given resource may be suffering > from actually legitimate VPN routes hence to use RTC indeed a lot of > additional RTs would have to be applied. > > > > But I do not understand why authors fail to recognize that solution for > their problem has been invented and implemented over 20 years ago already. > The solution is to control on a per *ingress* VRF basis number of VPN > routes customer is authorized to inject into his VPN with eBGP PE-CE prefix > limit. > > > > [WAJ] we have mentioned prefix limit solutions in the draft and analysis > its applicability scope. > > > > Most SPs offering L3VPNs use prefix limit successfully to protect their > shared resources for vast majority of customers and deployments. For VPN > customers with unpredictable amount of routing CSC model should be used > instead. > > > > By all means filtering and dropping accepted into SP network VPN route > should not take place. > > > > Thx, > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 11:41 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Aijun > > > > I agree with Robert that you cannot filter by RD or you would drop all the > routes and filtering must be done by RT. Also the issue with RT ORF filter > is as Robert mentioned that you may have the same prefix with two different > RTs which is common unique by RD and so the ORF would drop the prefixes. > > > > [WAJ] Such situation can only happen at the extraVPN scenarios which > should be designed carefully——one must keep the prefixes in these VRFs > not overlap. But if the prefixes in these VRFs are not overlap, why do we > need to separate them in different VRFs? > > In conclusion, this is just corner case and should be avoided in design. > > > > > > > > I am not sure I understand what problem you are trying to solve that is > not already solved by RTC membership so that only RTs imported by the PE > are what is advertised by the RR. That is most effective way of cutting > down the RT flooding that occurs in the RR to PE advertisement. RT > filtering is enabled by Default on all PEs and only if the RT is imported > on the PE are the RTs accepted into the vpn rib. That works pretty well in > cutting down RT advertisements by the RR. > > > > As Robert mentioned each VRF has a maximum prefix which is defined on the > PE RIBs per VRF and in general on most current or even hardware within the > last 10 years is a minimum 1M prefixes per VRF is pretty standard with most > vendors and platforms. The vpn rib limit is much much higher on the higher > end platforms. > > > > You draft talks about inter-as issues solved with RT-ORF. So when PE-PE > inter-as option B by default all RTs are dropped due to default RT > filtering and only RTs that are accepted are those RTS that are explicitly > being imported on the PE ASBR. There is an option for retain route-target > all that disabled the default RT filtering so that all VPN routes can be > accepted on the inter-as option B link. However a RT filter can still be > applied to the retian-route-target all so that only pertinent RTs are > accepted inter domain. That seems to work pretty well. > > > > As far as inter-as option C, the PE-PE ASBRs do not maintain the VPN RIB. > BGP LU is enabled on the inter-as link for end to end LSP by importing the > loopback between ASs for the end to end LSPto be built. The RRs between > the SPs have eBGP VPN IPv4 VPN IPV6 peer with next hop unchanged so the > data plane gets built between the PEs. The RR by default does not have RT > filtering enabled by default as does the PE, so is able to reflect all the > vpn routes learned to all PEs within each AS. In the inter-as scenario as > well RTC works very well with the RT membership to cut down on RR to PE vpn > route advertisements. > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Gyan > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 12:49 PM Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn> > wrote: > > Hi, Robert: > > > > Aijun Wang > > China Telecom > > > > On Aug 6, 2020, at 00:14, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote: > > > > > > [WAJ] The VPN routes imported in these VRFs can’t use the same RD, or > else, the VPN prefixes in different VRFs will collision on RR. > > > > Nothing will "collide" on RRs. > > > > NLRI = RD+Prefix not just the RD. > > > > [WAJ] The prefix part can be overlap in different VRF. If the RD is same, > RD+Prefix will also be overlap. > > We must make sure different VRF use different RD to make the VPN prefixes > unique within the domain. > > > > So you may have completely different prefixes sourced by the same VRF > going to completely different VRFs on same or different PEs. > > > > > > [WAJ] This situation is for extraVPN communication, and should be designed > carefully to avoid the address collision.. > > If the address space in different VRF need to be considered in such > manner, putting them in one VRF may be more straightforward. > > > > Kind regards, > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > -- > > <http://www.verizon.com/> > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions Architect * > > > > *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/13101+Columbia+Pike%C2%A0+Silver+Spring,+MD?entry=gmail&source=g>*Silver > Spring, MD > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/13101+Columbia+Pike%C2%A0+Silver+Spring,+MD?entry=gmail&source=g> > > > > -- > > <http://www.verizon.com/> > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions Architect * > > > > *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/13101+Columbia+Pike+Silver+Spring,+MD?entry=gmail&source=g> *Silver > Spring, MD > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/13101+Columbia+Pike+Silver+Spring,+MD?entry=gmail&source=g> > > > > -- > > <http://www.verizon.com/> > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions Architect * > > > > *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD > > > >
- [Idr] New Version Notification for draft-wang-idr… wangw36@chinatelecom.cn
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Rajiv Asati (rajiva)
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … UTTARO, JAMES
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … John E Drake
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … UTTARO, JAMES
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] [Responses for the comments during the … Gyan Mishra