[Idr] slides for presentations
Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> Mon, 31 October 2005 16:32 UTC
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Folks, If you are presenting at the IDR WG meeting please send your slide to Sue and myself, so we'll make them available on the Web. Yakov. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from -1213767584 (cm161.gamma142.maxonline.com.sg [202.156.142.161]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA27087 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from norika-fujiwara.com (-1213572272 [-1214083904]) by cm161.gamma142.maxonline.com.sg (Qmail.1) with ESMTP id F78A888D66 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:53:21 -0800 From: "Seizure C. 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Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EWcaE-00083h-7i; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:32:30 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EWcaC-00083S-Ta for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:32:29 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA18917 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from colo-dns-ext1.juniper.net ([207.17.137.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EWcoN-0005qt-2m for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:47:10 -0500 Received: from merlot.juniper.net (merlot.juniper.net [172.17.27.10]) by colo-dns-ext1.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id j9VGWF956851 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:32:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Received: from juniper.net (sapphire.juniper.net [172.17.28.108]) by merlot.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j9VGWAG81822 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:32:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Message-Id: <200510311632.j9VGWAG81822@merlot.juniper.net> To: idr@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <45476.1130776330.1@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:32:10 -0800 From: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Subject: [Idr] slides for presentations X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Folks, If you are presenting at the IDR WG meeting please send your slide to Sue and myself, so we'll make them available on the Web. Yakov. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA21753 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.cnri.reston.va.us ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EWZIW-00055y-QA; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:02:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EWZIU-00055A-Ro for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:01:58 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA05777 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from colo-dns-ext1.juniper.net ([207.17.137.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EWZWf-0001A4-5w for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:16:38 -0500 Received: from merlot.juniper.net (merlot.juniper.net [172.17.27.10]) by colo-dns-ext1.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id j9VD1l954769 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 05:01:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Received: from juniper.net (sapphire.juniper.net [172.17.28.108]) by merlot.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j9VD1gG58034 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 31 Oct 2005 05:01:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Message-Id: <200510311301.j9VD1gG58034@merlot.juniper.net> To: idr@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <38448.1130763702.1@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 05:01:42 -0800 From: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Subject: [Idr] IDR WG final agenda X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Folks, The final agenda is available: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/05nov/agenda/idr.txt Yakov. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA14270 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EVFTC-0002Wf-77; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:39:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EVFT9-0002Ui-Vz; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:39:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19048; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:39:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62] ident=mailnull) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EVFga-0001fw-Dr; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:53:25 -0400 Received: from [147.28.0.62] (helo=usmovnazinin.alcatel.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52 (FreeBSD)) id 1EVFT4-000LBP-Jz; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:39:26 +0000 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:39:12 -0700 From: Alex Zinin <zinin@psg.com> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <393302246.20051027143912@psg.com> To: routing-discussion@ietf.org, saag@mit.edu, idr@ietf.org, rtg-dir@ietf.org, rtg-chairs@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Idr] Secure Interdomain Routing BOF X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Alex Zinin <zinin@psg.com> List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Folks- We're going to have a BOF in Vancouver to discuss mechanisms for securing Internet inter-domain routing. Please subscribe to the list, and mark you calendars. Information below. It is currently scheduled on Thur, 9:00-11:30am. -- Alex http://www.psg.com/~zinin Name of the BOF: Secure Interdomain Routing (SIDR) Area: Routing Chairs: Geoff Huston Sponsoring ADs: Alex Zinin, Bill Fenner The RPSEC WG has been working on security requirements for the Internet routing system in general and the BGP routing protocol in particular. While considerable progress has been made so far, formulation of the complete set of requirements can take some time. At the same time, there's a shared understanding in the IETF community that architectural and protocol work on securing interdomain routing needs to start, as it will take time to formulate an architectural approach and associated protocol interactions, develop implementations and see first deployments. The goal of this BOF is to discuss creation of an extensible interdomain routing security architecture that would form the foundation of an approach that incrementally defines security features for BGP, while the discussion on requirements progresses. The expected outcome is an agreement on the initial set of security features that such an architecture would provide. It is not a goal of this BOF to choose between SBGP and SoBGP. Agenda: 1. Introduction and current status [15m] 2. Brief overview of currently proposed solutions [30m] 3. Description of proposed work [15m] 4. Discussion [60m] Mailing list: sidr@ietf.org To subscribe: sidr-request@ietf.org Reading material: Requirements: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rpsec-routing-threats-07.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-rpsec-bgpsecrec-02.txt SoBGP: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-white-sobgp-architecture-01.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ng-sobgp-bgp-extensions-01.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-weis-sobgp-certificates-01.txt SBGP: SBGP web page: http://www.net-tech.bbn.com/sbgp/sbgp-index.html _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from -1214643520 (chello062179047004.chello.pl [62.179.47.4]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA13642 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rickymail.com (-1213403880 [-1213602984]) by chello062179047004.chello.pl (Qmailv1) with ESMTP id 277330515D for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:17:28 -0700 From: "Unlaced E. 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Trackers" <snd_pcm_hw_params_get_buffer_size_max@altacocina.com> To: Idr <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu> Subject: Three steps to the software you need for the price you want. Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:26:53 -0700 Message-ID: <111001c5d9c3$3362b509$582e8758@altacocina.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_5F958EDB.D522D977" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1081 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter at pc-94-144-215-201.cm.vtr.net This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_5F958EDB.D522D977 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://ziqmuj.7vdku7vgdluggppk8spkcppp.crossedfa.com If you are interested in brands like Microsoft, Macromedia, Adobe, Corel etc. Please check our reduced price. 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XP - $50 Come to site http://slgnlx.e22rjw25kajnnwwrfhe91eee.cozailm.com ------=_NextPart_000_0036_5F958EDB.D522D977 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <body> <table align=3dcenter> <tr><td align=3dcenter> <strong align=3dcenter><a href=3d"http://slgnlx=2ee22rjw25kajnnwwrfhe91ee= e=2ecozailm=2ecom"> <font size=3d4 color=3d#1213a7> Software at incredibly low price! </a></strong> </td></tr> <tr><td align=3dcenter><font size=3d4>Check up our reduced price=2e</td><= /tr> </table> <table align=3dcenter border=3d0> <tr><td align=3dcenter colspan=3d2>Special Offers:</td></tr> <tr><td>Bundle Special:Dreamwaver MX 2004 + Flash MX 2004</td><td>$109=2e= 95</td></tr><tr><td>Bundle Special:Photoshop + Premiere + Illustrator <= /td><td>$129=2e95</td></tr><tr><td>Bundle Special:MS Windows XP Professio= nal + MS Office XP Professional</td><td>$89=2e95</td></tr><tr><td>Bundle = Special:Windows XP Professional With SP2 Full Version + Office 2003 Profe= ssional (1 CD)</td><td>$99=2e95</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td align=3dcenter colspan=3d2>Microsoft Windows|R| </td></tr> <tr><td>Windows 98 Second Edition </td><td>$49=2e95</td></tr><tr><td>Wind= ows 95</td><td>$49=2e95</td></tr><tr><td>Windows NT 4=2e0 Server </td><td= >$49=2e95</td></tr><tr><td>Windows XP Pro With SP2 Full Version</td><td>$= 79=2e95</td></tr><tr><td>Windows 2k Advanced Server </td><td>$69=2e95</td= ></tr><tr><td>Windows XP Pro</td><td>$69=2e95</td></tr><tr><td>Windows 2k= Pro</td><td>$59=2e95</td></tr><tr><td>Windows Millenium </td><td>$59=2e9= 5</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td align=3dcenter colspan=3d2>Microsoft|c| Office:</td></tr> <tr><td>Office 2000 Premium Edition (2 CD)</td><td>$59=2e95</td></tr><tr>= <td>Office 97 SR2</td><td>$49=2e95</td></tr><tr><td>FileMaker 7=2e0 Pro</= td><td>$69=2e95</td></tr><tr><td>Office 2003 Pro (1 CD)</td><td>$89=2e95<= /td></tr><tr><td>Office XP Pro</td><td>$79=2e95</td></tr> <tr><td> </td></tr> <tr><td align=3dcenter colspan=3d2>Other Microsoft|R| Software:</td></tr>= <tr><td>Microsoft Exchange 2003 Enterprise Server</td><td>$69=2e95</tr></= td><tr><td>Microsoft Streets and Trips 2004 North America (2 CD)</td><td>= $69=2e95</tr></td><tr><td>Microsoft Works 7</td><td>$69=2e95</tr></td><tr= ><td>Microsoft Visual Studio =2eNET Architect Edition (8CD)</td><td>$139=2e= 95</tr></td><tr><td>Microsoft Money 2004</td><td>$69=2e95</tr></td><tr><t= d>Microsoft Picture It Premium 9</td><td>$59=2e95</tr></td><tr><td>Micros= oft SQL Server 2000 Enterprise Edition</td><td>$69=2e95</tr></td><tr><td>= Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia Delux 2004 (3 CD)</td><td>$89=2e95</tr></t= d><tr><td>Microsoft Plus! 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(VPS 0543-0, 10/24/2005), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 22:57:55.0299 (UTC) FILETIME=[5EB9FB30:01C5D8EE] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net>, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>, idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: raszuk@cisco.com List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Hi Curtis, I agree with you and support this to become an IDR WG doc. Even if ever AS_HOPCOUNT is used to limit specific propagation of just 1 hop away it already will be very useful. And and far as additional incentive goes .. proper network design should be enough of incentive :). Maybe that goes against $$$$ rule but IMHO it goes along the real large scale network design principle (if that even still matters these days :-). Cheers, R. > In message <200510240238.j9O2coG11501@merlot.juniper.net> > Yakov Rekhter writes: > >> >>Folks, >> >>We received a request (see below) to accept >>draft-li-as-hopcount-03.txt as an IDR WG document. >> >>Comments are greatly appreciated. The deadline for comments is >>November 6, 2005 (not 10/31, as mentioned below). >> >>Yakov. > > > > This draft provides a useful mechanism for limiting the scope of > routing information that is needed only for localized traffic > engineering (where localized can span continents and indeed does in a > well known example of intended usage). The use of AS_HOPCOUNT and > NO_EXPORT together as described in the draft provides a transition > mechanism that will prevent any significant harm to the network as a > result of partial deployment of this feature. > > I agree with the proposal that draft-li-as-hopcount-03.txt should > become a WG document. > > Curtis > > > ------- Forwarded Message > > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:46:27 -0700 > From: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> > To: idr@ietf.org > Subject: [Idr] AS hopcount draft > > > > All, > > After our Paris discussion, the AS hopcount draft has been modified > as discussed to include a 4 byte AS number as part of the attribute > to aid in debugging. I would like to propose that this become a WG > document at this point. If folks have objections to this or > comments, could you please voice them by Monday, 10/31 (boo!). > > The current draft can be found here: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-as-hopcount-03.txt > > Thanks, > Joe, Rex & Tony > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA25929 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUArn-0007Cj-RN; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:32:31 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EUArm-0007Cc-2b for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:32:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA25794 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EUB4b-0002S9-6E for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:45:46 -0400 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Oct 2005 15:32:18 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,246,1125903600"; d="scan'208"; a="668772673:sNHT1195237432" Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j9OMVgv5029051; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:32:13 -0700 Received: from [171.71.137.204] ([171.68.225.134]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:32:12 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.6.040913.0 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:32:21 -0500 From: David Ward <dward@cisco.com> To: <idr@ietf.org>, David Ward <dward@cisco.com> Message-ID: <BF82CB25.12B86%dward@cisco.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Oct 2005 22:32:12.0718 (UTC) FILETIME=[C746CCE0:01C5D8EA] X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Idr] A couple of drafts we will present X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org All - I apologize that I couldn't get the formatting of xml2rfc correct in time but, here is the location of a couple of drafts that will be presented at IETF 64 in Vancouver. http://bgp.nu/~dward/idr-drafts.2005.11/ http://bgp.nu/~dward/idr-drafts.2005.11/draft-djernaes-simple-context-update -00.txt http://bgp.nu/~dward/idr-drafts.2005.11/draft-raszuk-aggr-withdraw-00.txt Thanks -DWard _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA21530 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU4b4-0002fg-Mv; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:50:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU4b3-0002eW-Aa for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:50:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16674 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zcars04e.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.56] helo=zcars04e.ca.nortel.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EU4nn-0008Dz-UC for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:04:02 -0400 Received: from zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com (zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com [47.129.230.99]) by zcars04e.ca.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id j9OFljB28880 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:47:46 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:50:26 -0400 Message-ID: <713043CE8B8E1348AF3C546DBE02C1B405631EDF@zcarhxm2.corp.nortel.com> Thread-Topic: BGP MIBs and Management Thread-Index: AcXYsqaMcSZSHj8OT5OUr/sfqHREPg== From: "Sharon Chisholm" <schishol@nortel.com> To: <idr@ietf.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Subject: [Idr] BGP MIBs and Management X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by nic.merit.edu id LAA21530 hi Is there interest in getting together to discuss the IDR WG's MIB and Management Deliverables in Vancouver? For those who won't know me, I'm assigned as the MIB doctor for this working group. This hasn't required a lot of my cycles lately, since it seems that work isn't progressing very quickly. I don't know if this is because there isn't a real need for supporting IPv6 and various BGP extensions in the MIBs, or if people are planning on doing all the management work at the end (magic management dust?). It would be good to get together quickly and review where we are and what we are trying to do. Please let me know if there is any interest. Thanks, Sharon Chisholm Nortel Ottawa, Ontario Canada _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA21522 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU4c7-00030p-1l; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:51:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU4c5-00030W-Iq for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:51:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16751 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay00.pair.com ([209.68.5.9] helo=relay.pair.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EU4or-0008HC-6n for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:05:06 -0400 Received: (qmail 24470 invoked from network); 24 Oct 2005 15:51:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO workhorse.faster-light.net) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 24 Oct 2005 15:51:49 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 69.37.59.162 Received: from workhorse.faster-light.net (localhost.faster-light.net [127.0.0.1]) by workhorse.faster-light.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9OFq46D063720; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:52:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@workhorse.faster-light.net) Message-Id: <200510241552.j9OFq46D063720@workhorse.faster-light.net> To: Pekka Savola <pekkas@netcore.fi> Subject: Re: [Idr] AS hopcount draft as an IDR WG document In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:59:55 +0300." <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510241445050.21733@netcore.fi> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:52:04 -0400 From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@faster-light.net List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org In message <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510241445050.21733@netcore.fi> Pekka Savola writes: > > On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Elmar K. Bins wrote: > > I like this proposal very much, because it enables conscious > > operators to somewhat "confine" their more specific advertisements > > (or, their advertisements at all) to a certain radius. > > note: I only took a quick look at the document. > > Is this approach really useful? That is, > > a) an "AS" is a coarse concept. A single router, or a single AS > could span across the globe. Thus, "AS hop count" in itself doesn't > buy you much. > > b) given a), this attribute would likely only be used with small hop > counts, say 1-3, because if the operator doesn't investigate the > AS-level topology in detail, (s)he cannot know which count (s)he would > want to use to obtain the intended policy. I'm assuming investigation > of AS-based topology beyond a couple of AS hops would be infeasible. > > c) as reducing the hop count per traversed AS requires support for > this attribute, until this is deployed everywhere, the usage is even > more challenging. That is, it's not enough to figure out the AS-level > topology, you also need to figure out (and monitor) whether they > support AS hopcount, and how to take it into the account in setting > the AS level hopcount. > > So, I'm a bit of skeptic whether this kind of tool is useful enough > for the intended purpose (i.e., would it become used). As it happens, > you can already use NO_EXPORT for hop 1, and in most cases > provider-specific communities for hop 2. I'm not sure if it's clear > enough that a more generic solution is necessary. > > btw. is a confederation peer considered 'an external peer' ? > > -- > Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the > Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." > Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings Pekka, I think the motivation for this would be the problem that the POISSON WG set out to address but never found a solution for. The specific example that was used in POISSON was Australian providers using a large number of more specific routes advertised to multiple global providers in order to balance the load from the US west coast across these providers. Much of that traffic was from other providers within the US or from Europe where the more specific routes were not needed. Limiting the scope of these more specific prefixes reduced global routing while still allowing providers to do this sort of load balancing. Since we know that this is being done, deployment, even partial deployment would reduce the amount of unnessecary global routing information. Therefore, yes it is useful. Please feel free to correct me if I got this wrong since I'm not part of any team that put this together or discussed this in Paris. Curtis _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA21189 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU44U-0001FL-1z; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:17:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU44T-0001F6-8Z for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:17:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA14999 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay02.pair.com ([209.68.5.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EU4HE-000798-D1 for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:30:21 -0400 Received: (qmail 68682 invoked from network); 24 Oct 2005 15:16:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO workhorse.faster-light.net) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 24 Oct 2005 15:16:59 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 69.37.59.162 Received: from workhorse.faster-light.net (localhost.faster-light.net [127.0.0.1]) by workhorse.faster-light.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9OFHEqZ060099; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:17:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@workhorse.faster-light.net) Message-Id: <200510241517.j9OFHEqZ060099@workhorse.faster-light.net> To: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] AS hopcount draft as an IDR WG document In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:38:50 PDT." <200510240238.j9O2coG11501@merlot.juniper.net> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:17:14 -0400 From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: idr@ietf.org, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@faster-light.net List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org In message <200510240238.j9O2coG11501@merlot.juniper.net> Yakov Rekhter writes: > > Folks, > > We received a request (see below) to accept > draft-li-as-hopcount-03.txt as an IDR WG document. > > Comments are greatly appreciated. The deadline for comments is > November 6, 2005 (not 10/31, as mentioned below). > > Yakov. This draft provides a useful mechanism for limiting the scope of routing information that is needed only for localized traffic engineering (where localized can span continents and indeed does in a well known example of intended usage). The use of AS_HOPCOUNT and NO_EXPORT together as described in the draft provides a transition mechanism that will prevent any significant harm to the network as a result of partial deployment of this feature. I agree with the proposal that draft-li-as-hopcount-03.txt should become a WG document. Curtis ------- Forwarded Message Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:46:27 -0700 From: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> To: idr@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] AS hopcount draft All, After our Paris discussion, the AS hopcount draft has been modified as discussed to include a 4 byte AS number as part of the attribute to aid in debugging. I would like to propose that this become a WG document at this point. If folks have objections to this or comments, could you please voice them by Monday, 10/31 (boo!). The current draft can be found here: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-as-hopcount-03.txt Thanks, Joe, Rex & Tony _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA19051 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU19P-0004Ho-LD; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:10:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU19O-0004Gk-2s for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:10:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA05675 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from detebe.org ([195.34.187.2] helo=new.detebe.org ident=exim) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EU1M6-0000zp-Hq for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:23:12 -0400 Received: from elmi by new.detebe.org with local (Exim 4.22) id 1EU19I-000K5l-5e; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:09:56 +0200 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:09:56 +0200 From: "Elmar K. Bins" <elmi@4ever.de> To: Pekka Savola <pekkas@netcore.fi> Subject: Re: [Idr] AS hopcount draft as an IDR WG document Message-ID: <20051024120955.GQ93623@new.detebe.org> References: <200510240238.j9O2coG11501@merlot.juniper.net> <20051024073925.GB93623@new.detebe.org> <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510241445050.21733@netcore.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510241445050.21733@netcore.fi> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: unorganized since 1789 X-Whisky: Knockando, extra old reserve X-Ncc-RegID: de.denic X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Pekka :) pekkas@netcore.fi (Pekka Savola) wrote: > note: I only took a quick look at the document. You should, it would answer your question c) > a) an "AS" is a coarse concept. A single router, or a single AS > could span across the globe. Thus, "AS hop count" in itself doesn't > buy you much. You'll have to decide whether it's useful for your AS. > b) given a), this attribute would likely only be used with small hop > counts, say 1-3, because if the operator doesn't investigate the > AS-level topology in detail, (s)he cannot know which count (s)he would > want to use to obtain the intended policy. I'm assuming investigation > of AS-based topology beyond a couple of AS hops would be infeasible. One could start experimenting, though :) > So, I'm a bit of skeptic whether this kind of tool is useful enough > for the intended purpose (i.e., would it become used). As it happens, > you can already use NO_EXPORT for hop 1, and in most cases > provider-specific communities for hop 2. I'm not sure if it's clear > enough that a more generic solution is necessary. If it would be used at all, and large-scale, we could get quite a lot of rubbish out of the DFZ, buying a couple more years. Elmar. -- "Begehe nur nicht den Fehler, Meinung durch Sachverstand zu substituieren." (PLemken, <bu6o7e$e6v0p$2@ID-31.news.uni-berlin.de>) --------------------------------------------------------------[ ELMI-RIPE ]--- _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA18910 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU0zt-0001AO-Ms; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:00:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EU0zq-00019A-Qv for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:00:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA04560 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netcore.fi ([193.94.160.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EU1CZ-0000V0-Gc for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:13:21 -0400 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j9OBxt022478 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:59:55 +0300 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:59:55 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola <pekkas@netcore.fi> To: idr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] AS hopcount draft as an IDR WG document In-Reply-To: <20051024073925.GB93623@new.detebe.org> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510241445050.21733@netcore.fi> References: <200510240238.j9O2coG11501@merlot.juniper.net> <20051024073925.GB93623@new.detebe.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Elmar K. Bins wrote: > I like this proposal very much, because it enables conscious > operators to somewhat "confine" their more specific advertisements > (or, their advertisements at all) to a certain radius. note: I only took a quick look at the document. Is this approach really useful? That is, a) an "AS" is a coarse concept. A single router, or a single AS could span across the globe. Thus, "AS hop count" in itself doesn't buy you much. b) given a), this attribute would likely only be used with small hop counts, say 1-3, because if the operator doesn't investigate the AS-level topology in detail, (s)he cannot know which count (s)he would want to use to obtain the intended policy. I'm assuming investigation of AS-based topology beyond a couple of AS hops would be infeasible. c) as reducing the hop count per traversed AS requires support for this attribute, until this is deployed everywhere, the usage is even more challenging. That is, it's not enough to figure out the AS-level topology, you also need to figure out (and monitor) whether they support AS hopcount, and how to take it into the account in setting the AS level hopcount. So, I'm a bit of skeptic whether this kind of tool is useful enough for the intended purpose (i.e., would it become used). As it happens, you can already use NO_EXPORT for hop 1, and in most cases provider-specific communities for hop 2. I'm not sure if it's clear enough that a more generic solution is necessary. btw. is a confederation peer considered 'an external peer' ? -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA15924 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETwvk-0008E7-21; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:39:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETwvh-0008CZ-CE for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:39:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA22362 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:39:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from detebe.org ([195.34.187.2] helo=new.detebe.org ident=exim) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ETx8N-0000HY-8c for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:52:45 -0400 Received: from elmi by new.detebe.org with local (Exim 4.22) id 1ETwvW-000GsR-C8; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:39:26 +0200 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:39:25 +0200 From: "Elmar K. Bins" <elmi@4ever.de> To: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] AS hopcount draft as an IDR WG document Message-ID: <20051024073925.GB93623@new.detebe.org> References: <200510240238.j9O2coG11501@merlot.juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200510240238.j9O2coG11501@merlot.juniper.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: unorganized since 1789 X-Whisky: Knockando, extra old reserve X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org yakov@juniper.net (Yakov Rekhter) wrote: > We received a request (see below) to accept draft-li-as-hopcount-03.txt > as an IDR WG document. > > Comments are greatly appreciated. The deadline for comments is > November 6, 2005 (not 10/31, as mentioned below). I - as a newbie to this list - would like to comment in a somewhat private way on this; I'd anyhow like to share my thoughts and I hope I'm not too far off-topic. I like this proposal very much, because it enables conscious operators to somewhat "confine" their more specific advertisements (or, their advertisements at all) to a certain radius. I personally would like this level of control over the prefixes I use for anycasting. Controlling load-sharing over anycast locations is a pretty hard job, and the control is not really better than marginal. I also see an application in more-specific multi-homing. We'll be needing this in the next year, splitting our PA block in the process (not wanting to waste address resources on top of using up additional slots in the BGP tables). And since we're such good netizens, we'd like to be able to confine the more specifics' propagation to some radius that covers all locations involved. The aggregate will provide for fallback connectivity. Unfortunately, I strongly believe that not everybody that could use the AS hopcount feature will actually use it without being given additional incentive. As per the proposal, setting the NLRI is entirely voluntary. It also involves (a) an understanding of how DFZ routing works, (b) an idea of how far into the DFZ their advertisements need to be seen, and (c) the will to confine the advertisements. Would you consider using AS hopcount as a way to lighten DFZ tables from more-specific multi-homing garbage an abuse of the scheme? If not, does anybody have an idea of how to get people to confine their more specific prefixes, some way of incentive? I'm not sure if this can be done in the draft itself. This may need to be addresses separately, but could be mentioned alongside the draft. Thanks for listening, Elmar. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA12362 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETsEq-0000JM-CW; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:39:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETsEp-0000JH-DA for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:39:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA07939 for <idr@ietf.org>; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colo-dns-ext2.juniper.net ([207.17.137.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ETsRT-0007rA-0k for idr@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:52:09 -0400 Received: from merlot.juniper.net (merlot.juniper.net [172.17.27.10]) by colo-dns-ext2.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id j9O2coBm081788; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:38:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Received: from juniper.net (sapphire.juniper.net [172.17.28.108]) by merlot.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j9O2coG11501; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:38:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Message-Id: <200510240238.j9O2coG11501@merlot.juniper.net> To: idr@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <48229.1130121530.1@juniper.net> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:38:50 -0700 From: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Cc: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> Subject: [Idr] AS hopcount draft as an IDR WG document X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Folks, We received a request (see below) to accept draft-li-as-hopcount-03.txt as an IDR WG document. Comments are greatly appreciated. The deadline for comments is November 6, 2005 (not 10/31, as mentioned below). Yakov. ------- Forwarded Message Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:46:27 -0700 From: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> To: idr@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] AS hopcount draft All, After our Paris discussion, the AS hopcount draft has been modified as discussed to include a 4 byte AS number as part of the attribute to aid in debugging. I would like to propose that this become a WG document at this point. If folks have objections to this or comments, could you please voice them by Monday, 10/31 (boo!). The current draft can be found here: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-as-hopcount-03.txt Thanks, Joe, Rex & Tony _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr ------- End of Forwarded Message _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA10400 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETpYF-0001eC-W9; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:46:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ETpYE-0001e7-Pj for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:46:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA01521 for <idr@ietf.org>; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net ([204.127.202.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ETpkr-0003AR-Rr for idr@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:59:59 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.5] (c-67-180-169-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[67.180.169.111]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005102323462901200fpvt5e>; Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:46:35 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <850B06A5-2D32-4CD1-AC38-9CF521DB167F@tony.li> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: idr@ietf.org From: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:46:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Idr] AS hopcount draft X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org All, After our Paris discussion, the AS hopcount draft has been modified as discussed to include a 4 byte AS number as part of the attribute to aid in debugging. I would like to propose that this become a WG document at this point. If folks have objections to this or comments, could you please voice them by Monday, 10/31 (boo!). The current draft can be found here: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-as-hopcount-03.txt Thanks, Joe, Rex & Tony _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from -1210663768 (69-175-84-20.chvlva.adelphia.net [69.175.84.20]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA25882 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:41:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bigfoot.com (-1210223704 [-1211089848]) by 69-175-84-20.chvlva.adelphia.net (Qmailv1) with ESMTP id DA8B72F77A for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:08:27 -0700 From: "Counterattacking H. 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Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:26:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQqhj-00079v-Pk; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:24:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQqhi-00076b-5k for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:24:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21932 for <idr@ietf.org>; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay03.pair.com ([209.68.5.17]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EQqsf-0001jM-FR for idr@ietf.org; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:35:42 -0400 Received: (qmail 3980 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2005 18:24:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO workhorse.faster-light.net) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 15 Oct 2005 18:24:09 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 69.37.59.162 Received: from workhorse.faster-light.net (localhost.faster-light.net [127.0.0.1]) by workhorse.faster-light.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9FIQFm6003411; Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:26:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@workhorse.faster-light.net) Message-Id: <200510151826.j9FIQFm6003411@workhorse.faster-light.net> To: Laurence.Duquerroy@alcatelaleniaspace.com Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-RIP interaction In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:28:17 +0200." <OF56EB5108.8861C4D3-ONC125709A.0028F911-C125709A.00290AB7@netfr.alcatel.fr> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 14:26:15 -0400 From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@faster-light.net List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org In message <OF56EB5108.8861C4D3-ONC125709A.0028F911-C125709A.00290AB7@netfr.alcatel.fr> Laurence.Duquerroy@alcatelaleniaspace.com writes: > > Hi, > > I work on routing protocols and have several questions about the > interactions between BGP and RIP : Can we redistribute routes learned > by BGP in RIP (like with OSPF)? And if so, can BGP attributes be > "translated" in RIP metric ,or will all redistributed routes get the > same RIP (default) metric? Thanks in advance for your help. > > Best regards, > > Laurence Duquerroy > > RT/ST > Research Department / Advanced Telecom Satellite Systems > Tel : 33 (0)5-34-35-63-06 / Fax : 33 (0)5-34-35-55-60 > E-Mail : laurence.duquerroy@alcatelaleniaspace.fr > > This message and any attachments (the "message") is intended solely for the > addressees and is confidential. If you receive this message in error, > please delete it and immediately notify the sender. Any use not in accord > with its purpose, any dissemination or disclosure, either whole or partial, > is prohibited except formal approval. The internet can not guarantee the > integrity of this message. ALCATEL ALENIA SPACE (and its subsidiaries) > shall (will) not therefore be liable for the message if modified. > > Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont > etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires et sont confidentiels. > Si vous recevez ce message par erreur, merci de le detruire et d'en avertir > immediatement l'expediteur. Toute utilisation de ce message non conforme a > sa destination, toute diffusion ou toute publication, totale ou partielle, > est interdite, sauf autorisation expresse. L'internet ne permettant pas > d'assurer l'integrite de ce message, ALCATEL ALENIA SPACE (et ses filiales) > decline(nt) toute responsabilite au titre de ce message, dans l'hypothese > ou il aurait ete modifie. Based on your notice we should not respond to your message and notify you that it was receive in error. Unless I'm mistaken in the US due to a court ruling in the 1980s if a confidentiality warning is routinely sent on non-confidential correspondence the warning is considered invalid on everything it is sent on. I'm not a lawyer so if you are concerned about this check with one (or refer your IT department to one since they are adding this). Curtis _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA05034 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:26:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQSLI-0001uD-SV; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:23:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQSLH-0001u5-ND for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:23:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27940 for <idr@ietf.org>; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:23:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colo-dns-ext2.juniper.net ([207.17.137.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EQSW1-0002kA-1O for idr@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:34:42 -0400 Received: from merlot.juniper.net (merlot.juniper.net [172.17.27.10]) by colo-dns-ext2.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id j9EGNPBm005738; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:23:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Received: from juniper.net (sapphire.juniper.net [172.17.28.108]) by merlot.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j9EGNDG54204; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:23:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Message-Id: <200510141623.j9EGNDG54204@merlot.juniper.net> To: idr@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <53267.1129306993.1@juniper.net> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:23:13 -0700 From: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: skh@nexthop.com Subject: [Idr] IDR WG agenda X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Folks, Re-iterating a call for agenda items for Vancouver: please send us (Sue and myself) the topic and how long a time slot you need. The deadline is Oct 30. And if you plan to make a presentation, please also keep in mind the rule "no document - no time slot". Yakov. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA02525 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQP8l-0006dn-O7; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:58:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQP8k-0006dc-2z for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:58:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA08043 for <idr@ietf.org>; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net ([199.201.159.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EQPJR-0002Td-4X for idr@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:09:30 -0400 Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 43562E0599; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:58:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 08:58:15 -0400 From: John Leslie <john@jlc.net> To: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [Idr] Revised text on how to construct the AS path info Message-ID: <20051014125815.GF27304@verdi> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> <20051012205713.GD27304@verdi> <434DFEB9.4090307@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <434DFEB9.4090307@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com> wrote: > > What types of "inconsistencies" between AS_PATH and NEW_AS_PATH you are > concerned about, beyond the one described in the Transition Section To tell truth, I'm not concerned about any particular case: I'm concerned about the general case. I expect whatever algorithms we specify to be still in use five years from now, in weird situations we _cannot_ imagine. > If your concern is about bogus AS path info somehow got propagated > around, that seems to be a general issue, independent of the 4byte AS. Indeed, I am largely concerned about things which are a general problem now. My concern is that these problems will lead to different behaviors and that the trail will be harder to follow. I believe there are simple consistency checks that could be run, and that if the consistency checks (between 2-byte AS_PATH and 4-byte NEW_AS_PATH) fail, we could either discard the NLRI or tag the 4-byte AS_PATH we will pass on so that other BGP speakers can know the inconsistency was found. (Paul and I, BTW, haven't reached agreement on which of these options is better. My concern is to establish the general principle, not to argue the details.) -- John Leslie <john@jlc.net> _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA28121 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 03:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQK0Q-00062i-Td; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 03:29:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQK0P-00061N-HH for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 03:29:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA22971 for <idr@ietf.org>; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 03:29:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Laurence.Duquerroy@alcatelaleniaspace.com Received: from smail3.alcatel.fr ([64.208.49.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EQKB4-0002RM-E8 for idr@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 03:40:31 -0400 Received: from vzmta01.netfr.alcatel.fr (vzmta01.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.182.220]) by smail3.alcatel.fr (ALCANET/NETFR) with ESMTP id j9E7TDES031314 for <idr@ietf.org>; Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:29:13 +0200 To: idr@ietf.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.3 September 14, 2004 Message-ID: <OF56EB5108.8861C4D3-ONC125709A.0028F911-C125709A.00290AB7@netfr.alcatel.fr> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:28:17 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on VZMTA01/ALCANET/ALCATEL-SPACE(Release 5.0.13a HF167|July 08, 2005) at 14/10/2005 09:29:13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Alcanet-MTA-scanned-and-authorized: yes X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Subject: [Idr] BGP-RIP interaction X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I work on routing protocols and have several questions about the interactions between BGP and RIP : Can we redistribute routes learned by BGP in RIP (like with OSPF)? And if so, can BGP attributes be "translated" in RIP metric ,or will all redistributed routes get the same RIP (default) metric? Thanks in advance for your help. Best regards, Laurence Duquerroy RT/ST Research Department / Advanced Telecom Satellite Systems Tel : 33 (0)5-34-35-63-06 / Fax : 33 (0)5-34-35-55-60 E-Mail : laurence.duquerroy@alcatelaleniaspace.fr This message and any attachments (the "message") is intended solely for the addressees and is confidential. If you receive this message in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender. Any use not in accord with its purpose, any dissemination or disclosure, either whole or partial, is prohibited except formal approval. The internet can not guarantee the integrity of this message. ALCATEL ALENIA SPACE (and its subsidiaries) shall (will) not therefore be liable for the message if modified. Ce message et toutes les pieces jointes (ci-apres le "message") sont etablis a l'intention exclusive de ses destinataires et sont confidentiels. Si vous recevez ce message par erreur, merci de le detruire et d'en avertir immediatement l'expediteur. Toute utilisation de ce message non conforme a sa destination, toute diffusion ou toute publication, totale ou partielle, est interdite, sauf autorisation expresse. L'internet ne permettant pas d'assurer l'integrite de ce message, ALCATEL ALENIA SPACE (et ses filiales) decline(nt) toute responsabilite au titre de ce message, dans l'hypothese ou il aurait ete modifie. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA14633 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:11:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ1vS-0003S0-0R; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:11:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EQ1vP-0003Rm-PM for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:11:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA13551 for <idr@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hibernia.jakma.org ([212.17.55.49] ident=[U2FsdGVkX1/egb6iU7E+2U49SrIYtEpAjjNskLaYt8A=]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EQ25t-0001OV-WB for idr@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:21:59 -0400 Received: from sheen.jakma.org (sheen.jakma.org [212.17.55.53]) by hibernia.jakma.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j9DC9VSP009410; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:09:36 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:11:33 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> X-X-Sender: paul@sheen.jakma.org To: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [Idr] Re: Revised text on how to construct the AS path info In-Reply-To: <434DF966.8080207@cisco.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510131257220.3396@sheen.jakma.org> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510120828570.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434DF966.8080207@cisco.com> Mail-Copies-To: paul@hibernia.jakma.org X-NSA: al aqsar jihad musharef jet-A1 avgas ammonium qran inshallah allah al-akbar martyr iraq saddam hammas hisballah rabin ayatollah korea vietnam revolt mustard gas british airways washington peroxide cool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87, clamav-milter version 0.87 on hibernia.jakma.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Enke Chen wrote: > Hi, Paul: > > You seem to be talking about the same case described in the > Transition Sect. of the document:: No, I mean any case where one or more 4-byte paths are aggregated with one or more non-4-byte paths. The part in the draft concerns itself with two 4-byte paths being aggregated. > As I am not aware of any implementation that compares and preserves > unrecognized attributes in aggregation, I concur that it should be > "rare" to see the NEW_AS_PATH after aggregation by an OLD BGP > speaker. Sure. But the transitional mechanism specified in the draft might have to remain 'dormant' for 5 or more years. So in addition to considering what is typical for speakers today, we should consider situations which are valid according to the RFC, particularly if they are very easy to deal with. > In the unlikely scenario that the NEW_AS_PATH got preserved during > aggregation by an OLD BGP speaker, as it is not possible to construct the > exact AS path info, it does not seem to matter whether we take the AS_PATH or > the NEW_AS_PATH as each of them contains partial, valid info. Well, the point is more that the merging /method/ doesn't apply any longer - the path lengths won't correlate. The method might even fail to include /any/ of the OLD path - which clearly is wrong. > (We could add some clarification, though.) What exactly is wrong with just ignoring NEW_AS_PATH if NEW_AGGREGATOR is? It's consistent and should be simple enough to state. I've left the outline quoted below. > Regardless this loss of AS path info is not new for aggregation. > Currently a large portion of the aggregates are created without > AS_SET. Sure, but I do not per se refer to the aggregated information. Other portions of the leading path could be lost too, because the method itself is inappropriate in such a case. > -- Enke >> (For in such a case the path length of the NEW_AS_PATH no longer would have >> any strong correlation to the path length of any trailing portion of the >> OLD AS_PATH, so the method to determine which part is 'leading' would >> produce a meaningless result - eg, it might indicate the AS_PATH has /no/ >> leading portion at all, or even a 'negative' leading portion ;) ). >> E.g: move the text about ignoring NEW_AGGREGATOR to /before/ the text about >> NEW_AS_PATH and make the text concerning AS_PATH/NEW_AS_PATH be something >> like: >> >> - if NEW_AGGREGATOR was present but has been ignored: >> - ignore NEW_AS_PATH >> - just strip AS_TRANS from the 2-byte AS_PATH and form the >> 4-byte PATH directly from the result >> - else >> - perform the merging process (i.e. the updated text you >> posted) regards, -- Paul Jakma paul@clubi.ie paul@jakma.org Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: The judge fined the jaywalker fifty dollars and told him if he was caught again, he would be thrown in jail. Fine today, cooler tomorrow. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA11429 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPxNK-0000a4-R5; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:19:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPxNJ-0000Zz-Cn for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:19:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA28476 for <idr@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:19:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net ([203.50.0.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPxXk-0001TV-Dk for idr@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:30:26 -0400 Received: from gihm3.apnic.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j9D7BrXv071750; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:12:00 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@apnic.net) Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051013171027.02d20c40@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:11:51 +1000 To: curtis@faster-light.net From: Geoff Huston <gih@apnic.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-Reply-To: <200510130522.j9D5MfpE037505@workhorse.faster-light.net> References: <Your message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:39:16 +1000." <6.2.0.14.2.20051013143340.02e25900@localhost> <200510130522.j9D5MfpE037505@workhorse.faster-light.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Cc: idr@ietf.org, Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie>, John Leslie <john@jlc.net> X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org > Would you prefer transit and stub to backbone and edge? yes! >It doesn't matter which AS converts to as4byte capable first as long >as the deployment is very far along before 4 byte AS start showing up. I have got to agree wholeheartedly here geoff At 03:22 PM 13/10/2005, Curtis Villamizar wrote: >In message <6.2.0.14.2.20051013143340.02e25900@localhost> >Geoff Huston writes: > > > > > > > > It's the other way around more likely. The edges of the internet are > > > > more likely to go NEW first... > > > > > > We've agreed that we should spec a transition which can work > > >either way (backbone going 4-byte first or edges going 4-byte first). > > > > I do not understand this. Surprisingly, he earth is not flat. > >That is only a theory according to some proposed science curriculum >revisions in the US. [Is that too US Centric a joke?] > > > What is > > an 'edge' and what is a 'backbone' are from an individual network > > operator's perspective often arbitrary distinctions, and then talking > > about which is these "goes first" is perhaps unhelpful What I like > > about the draft as it stands is that it views transition as a set of > > OLD / NEW and NEW / OLD transitions. That's simple and effective. I > > would not readily ascribe attributes to a transition spec that starts > > from a premise of "backbones" and "edges" and then starts to talk > > about which "goes first". > > > > regards, > > > > Geoff > >Edges are things that are single homed or at most dual homed but the >important thing is that they don't take full routes, don't provide any >transit, and don't readvertise any routes that they learn from one >Internet facing interface to another. > >Would you prefer transit and stub to backbone and edge? > >It doesn't matter if single homed stubs ever understand as4byte. They >don't really need to run an external routing protocol. The dual homed >non-transit might take a subset of routes, but if a few are missing >they'll never know since they have a default (other than load balance >might be affected). As soon as an AS passes routes from one peer to >another it might start to matter, but many small providers don't >provide transit to any BGP peers and their customers are not (or >should not be) passing routes to their other providers if dual homed >to more than one provider. These "edges" don't have to convert before >a transition occurs. > >It doesn't matter which AS converts to as4byte capable first as long >as the deployment is very far along before 4 byte AS start showing up. > >Curtis _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10729 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPwaq-0005MQ-Fi; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:29:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPwan-0005MA-6b for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:29:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA27266 for <idr@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPwlF-0000XT-0v for idr@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:40:18 -0400 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Oct 2005 23:29:19 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,209,1125903600"; d="scan'208"; a="665743126:sNHT24563204" Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j9D6T39E026061; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:29:14 -0700 Received: from [10.21.123.14] ([10.21.123.14]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:29:14 -0700 Message-ID: <434DFEB9.4090307@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:29:13 -0700 From: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Leslie <john@jlc.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] Revised text on how to construct the AS path info References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> <20051012205713.GD27304@verdi> In-Reply-To: <20051012205713.GD27304@verdi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 06:29:14.0066 (UTC) FILETIME=[6DF8EB20:01C5CFBF] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Hi, John: What types of "inconsistencies" between AS_PATH and NEW_AS_PATH you are concerned about, beyond the one described in the Transition Section (Please see my reply to Paul on that one)? If your concern is about bogus AS path info somehow got propagated around, that seems to be a general issue, independent of the 4byte AS. -- Enke John Leslie wrote: [snip] > It's very important to be clear that the AS_PATH "length" MUST be >the same as the AS_PATH received from the OLD BGP speaker. > > This algorithm should be appropriate, provided a reasonable test >for consistency between AS_PATH and NEW_AS_PATH is performed. (I'd >be happy to discuss my ideas for such a test.) > > I think we need to add a provision that the NLRI MAY (or even >SHOULD) be discarded if the two are inconsistent. > > _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10394 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPwEn-00084d-0c; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:06:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPwEl-00084J-7F for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:06:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA26174 for <idr@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPwPD-0008MR-M2 for idr@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:17:32 -0400 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Oct 2005 23:06:34 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,209,1125903600"; d="scan'208"; a="665738230:sNHT27100656" Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j9D66UJh027815; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:06:30 -0700 Received: from [10.21.123.14] ([10.21.123.14]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:06:30 -0700 Message-ID: <434DF966.8080207@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:06:30 -0700 From: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510120828570.3396@sheen.jakma.org> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510120828570.3396@sheen.jakma.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2005 06:06:30.0450 (UTC) FILETIME=[4131A120:01C5CFBC] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6d95a152022472c7d6cdf886a0424dc6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: idr@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] Re: Revised text on how to construct the AS path info X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Paul: You seem to be talking about the same case described in the Transition Sect. of the document:: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Under certain conditions it may not be possible to reconstruct the entire AS path information from the AS_PATH and the NEW_AS_PATH attributes of a route. This occurs when two or more routes that carry the NEW_AS_PATH attribute are aggregated by an OLD BGP speaker, and the NEW_AS_PATH attribute of at least one of these routes carries at least one 4-octet AS number (as oppose to a 2-octet AS number that is encoded in 4 octets). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As I am not aware of any implementation that compares and preserves unrecognized attributes in aggregation, I concur that it should be "rare" to see the NEW_AS_PATH after aggregation by an OLD BGP speaker. In the unlikely scenario that the NEW_AS_PATH got preserved during aggregation by an OLD BGP speaker, as it is not possible to construct the exact AS path info, it does not seem to matter whether we take the AS_PATH or the NEW_AS_PATH as each of them contains partial, valid info. (We could add some clarification, though.) Regardless this loss of AS path info is not new for aggregation. Currently a large portion of the aggregates are created without AS_SET. -- Enke Paul Jakma wrote: > Hi Enke, > > On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Enke Chen wrote: > >> Hi, folks: >> >> Attached is the revised text on how to construct the AS path >> information. >> >> Please comment if you see any issue. > > > Seems acceptable to me[1]. > > The issue of what to do if we detect an OLD speaker has done > aggregation is still open though: > > - If AGGREGATOR does not contain AS_TRANS then: > - an OLD speaker, which tries to include unknown attributes > of aggregated routes in aggregates, has aggregated the > route > (these kinds of speakers are rare apparently?) > > - NEW_AGGREGATOR should then be ignored (I believe you will > be specifying this in a new revision) > > This implies though that NEW_AS_PATH is *also* 'stale' and therefore > the merging method will not be appropriate. I'd suggest at least: > > - Also ignore NEW_AS_PATH if NEW_AGGREGATOR is ignored > - has an issue in what do about AS_TRANS's in the 2-byte path > - just remove it? (Section 7 mentions risks with > aggregates, as you pointed out to me privately) > > This seems far more appropriate than just merging AS_PATH and > NEW_AS_PATH given that doing so would likely replace the aggregate's > AS_SET information with completely different information from a stale > NEW_AS_PATH, or possibly fail to include /any/ portion of the 2-byte > path in the merged path. > > (For in such a case the path length of the NEW_AS_PATH no longer would > have any strong correlation to the path length of any trailing portion > of the OLD AS_PATH, so the method to determine which part is 'leading' > would produce a meaningless result - eg, it might indicate the AS_PATH > has /no/ leading portion at all, or even a 'negative' leading portion > ;) ). > > It's still sufficiently simple given that this condition will likely > be rare and the draft is willing to live with uncommon risks, > particulary wrt aggregation. > > E.g: move the text about ignoring NEW_AGGREGATOR to /before/ the text > about NEW_AS_PATH and make the text concerning AS_PATH/NEW_AS_PATH be > something like: > > - if NEW_AGGREGATOR was present but has been ignored: > - ignore NEW_AS_PATH > - just strip AS_TRANS from the 2-byte AS_PATH and form the > 4-byte PATH directly from the result > - else > - perform the merging process (i.e. the updated text you > posted) > > The risks could be mitigated better, but with a more involved process > of course. > >> -- Enke > > > 1. Though, ideally, I'd prefer to see the NEW speaker actually check > the 2 paths make sense against each other, given the speaker doing the > merging is the only speaker who could detect any such inconsistencies. > After merging, the information will be lost. Also, the implementation > report strongly suggests that at least one of the implementations > /does/ attempt to detect inconsistencies... ;) > > regards, _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA10220 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:54:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPw2i-0004Wf-TK; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:54:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPw2h-0004WV-0I for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:54:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA25370 for <idr@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:54:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay03.pair.com ([209.68.5.17]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPwD7-0007xi-67 for idr@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:05:03 -0400 Received: (qmail 9564 invoked from network); 13 Oct 2005 05:27:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO workhorse.faster-light.net) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 13 Oct 2005 05:27:27 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 69.37.59.162 Received: from workhorse.faster-light.net (localhost.faster-light.net [127.0.0.1]) by workhorse.faster-light.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9D5MfpE037505; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:22:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@workhorse.faster-light.net) Message-Id: <200510130522.j9D5MfpE037505@workhorse.faster-light.net> To: Geoff Huston <gih@apnic.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:39:16 +1000." <6.2.0.14.2.20051013143340.02e25900@localhost> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:22:41 -0400 From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Cc: idr@ietf.org, Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie>, John Leslie <john@jlc.net> X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@faster-light.net List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org In message <6.2.0.14.2.20051013143340.02e25900@localhost> Geoff Huston writes: > > > > > It's the other way around more likely. The edges of the internet are > > > more likely to go NEW first... > > > > We've agreed that we should spec a transition which can work > >either way (backbone going 4-byte first or edges going 4-byte first). > > I do not understand this. Surprisingly, he earth is not flat. That is only a theory according to some proposed science curriculum revisions in the US. [Is that too US Centric a joke?] > What is > an 'edge' and what is a 'backbone' are from an individual network > operator's perspective often arbitrary distinctions, and then talking > about which is these "goes first" is perhaps unhelpful What I like > about the draft as it stands is that it views transition as a set of > OLD / NEW and NEW / OLD transitions. That's simple and effective. I > would not readily ascribe attributes to a transition spec that starts > from a premise of "backbones" and "edges" and then starts to talk > about which "goes first". > > regards, > > Geoff Edges are things that are single homed or at most dual homed but the important thing is that they don't take full routes, don't provide any transit, and don't readvertise any routes that they learn from one Internet facing interface to another. Would you prefer transit and stub to backbone and edge? It doesn't matter if single homed stubs ever understand as4byte. They don't really need to run an external routing protocol. The dual homed non-transit might take a subset of routes, but if a few are missing they'll never know since they have a default (other than load balance might be affected). As soon as an AS passes routes from one peer to another it might start to matter, but many small providers don't provide transit to any BGP peers and their customers are not (or should not be) passing routes to their other providers if dual homed to more than one provider. These "edges" don't have to convert before a transition occurs. It doesn't matter which AS converts to as4byte capable first as long as the deployment is very far along before 4 byte AS start showing up. Curtis _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA09422 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:41:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPusb-0004Fw-6T; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:39:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPusZ-0004Fr-U5 for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:39:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23079 for <idr@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net ([203.50.0.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPv30-0006Wh-El for idr@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:50:32 -0400 Received: from gihm3.apnic.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j9D4dKXt069767; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:39:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@apnic.net) Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051013143340.02e25900@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:39:16 +1000 To: John Leslie <john@jlc.net>, Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> From: Geoff Huston <gih@apnic.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-Reply-To: <20051012204719.GC27304@verdi> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <20051010151650.GB45489@verdi> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510101622220.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <20051011155325.GI45489@verdi> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510111919200.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <20051012204719.GC27304@verdi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org > > It's the other way around more likely. The edges of the internet are > > more likely to go NEW first... > > We've agreed that we should spec a transition which can work >either way (backbone going 4-byte first or edges going 4-byte first). I do not understand this. Surprisingly, he earth is not flat. What is an 'edge' and what is a 'backbone' are from an individual network operator's perspective often arbitrary distinctions, and then talking about which is these "goes first" is perhaps unhelpful What I like about the draft as it stands is that it views transition as a set of OLD / NEW and NEW / OLD transitions. That's simple and effective. I would not readily ascribe attributes to a transition spec that starts from a premise of "backbones" and "edges" and then starts to talk about which "goes first". regards, Geoff _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA08640 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPu1E-0007MS-Ua; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:44:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPu1B-0007MC-G1 for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:44:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA20834 for <idr@ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net ([203.50.0.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPuBb-0005Dn-DI for idr@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:55:21 -0400 Received: from gihm3.apnic.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j9D3i2Xt069127; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:44:07 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@apnic.net) Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051013132547.02c62550@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:38:14 +1000 To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@nexthop.com> From: Geoff Huston <gih@apnic.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] Revised text for the 4-byte AS draft - IANA Considerations In-Reply-To: <20051012165343.GU25945@nexthop.com> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20051013014830.02e5db68@localhost> <20051012165343.GU25945@nexthop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org At 02:53 AM 13/10/2005, Jeffrey Haas wrote: >Geoff, > >On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 02:01:35AM +1000, Geoff Huston wrote: > > The alternative is to propose an augmentation of the existing AS number > > registry where the first 65536 numbers are noted as "2-Byte compliant" > > numbers, and the remainder of the registry are "4-Byte-only" values. > >I prefer this option. While mistakes are probably rare at best, >this narrows (eliminates) the chances of a mistake causing a conflict >between the registries. I'm personally not willing to write text for this option, as I feel that it makes the 2-byte registry ambiguous in terms of interpretation. What I have drafted is text that refers to the inclusion of the 2-Byte registry's contents in the low (0:0 - 0:65,535) number block of the the 4-Byte registry by reference. If you have alternate text as clear IANA instructions that preserves the appropriate distinction between the 2-Byte and 4-Byte AS number registries while co-existing in a single protocol parameter register then a request for your text that achieves this would be appropriate. Geoff Huston APNIC _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA06601 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPrJ5-0004Ow-Ls; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:50:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPrJ3-0004Or-BO for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:50:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA14528 for <idr@ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay00.pair.com ([209.68.5.9] helo=relay.pair.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPrTS-0001f9-6P for idr@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:01:35 -0400 Received: (qmail 74035 invoked from network); 13 Oct 2005 00:50:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO workhorse.faster-light.net) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 13 Oct 2005 00:50:41 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 69.37.59.162 Received: from workhorse.faster-light.net (localhost.faster-light.net [127.0.0.1]) by workhorse.faster-light.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9D0jv2p035902; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:45:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@workhorse.faster-light.net) Message-Id: <200510130045.j9D0jv2p035902@workhorse.faster-light.net> To: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:26:20 PDT." <D5DBC328-8DCB-4603-8BD2-8AB4F515ED71@tony.li> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:45:56 -0400 From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: idr@ietf.org, John Leslie <john@jlc.net> X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@faster-light.net List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org In message <D5DBC328-8DCB-4603-8BD2-8AB4F515ED71@tony.li> Tony Li writes: > > > It actully went quite well. The first BGP4 implementation to be > > deployed was Cisco, written by Tony, deployed by Sean Doran of > > Sprintlink, then others. > > > Small correction: I did the BGP3 implementation, helped get that > deployed, and then worked on the BGP4 spec. pst was responsible for > the BGP4 implementation. > > Tony Oops. Forgot the transition to Paul. Thanks for setting the history straight. I probably also should have said that Dennis did the gated BGP4 implementation with help from Jeff Honig and Scott Brim of Cornell. Curtis _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA05145 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPp3X-0003jl-D8; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:26:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPp3W-0003jL-8d for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:26:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09120 for <idr@ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portola.portolanetworks.tv ([66.121.157.205]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPpDt-00078j-LI for idr@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:37:23 -0400 Received: from [192.168.2.22] ([66.121.157.194]) by portola.portolanetworks.tv with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:21:56 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200510122148.j9CLmaJD035226@workhorse.faster-light.net> References: <200510122148.j9CLmaJD035226@workhorse.faster-light.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <D5DBC328-8DCB-4603-8BD2-8AB4F515ED71@tony.li> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:26:20 -0700 To: curtis@faster-light.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2005 22:21:56.0906 (UTC) FILETIME=[5B4458A0:01C5CF7B] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: idr@ietf.org, John Leslie <john@jlc.net> X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org > It actully went quite well. The first BGP4 implementation to be > deployed was Cisco, written by Tony, deployed by Sean Doran of > Sprintlink, then others. Small correction: I did the BGP3 implementation, helped get that deployed, and then worked on the BGP4 spec. pst was responsible for the BGP4 implementation. Tony _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA04770 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPoXS-000142-Pt; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:53:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPoXO-00013s-Kn for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:53:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07718 for <idr@ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay00.pair.com ([209.68.5.9] helo=relay.pair.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPohm-0006OZ-Ko for idr@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:04:11 -0400 Received: (qmail 37576 invoked from network); 12 Oct 2005 21:53:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO workhorse.faster-light.net) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 12 Oct 2005 21:53:17 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 69.37.59.162 Received: from workhorse.faster-light.net (localhost.faster-light.net [127.0.0.1]) by workhorse.faster-light.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9CLmaJD035226; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:48:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@workhorse.faster-light.net) Message-Id: <200510122148.j9CLmaJD035226@workhorse.faster-light.net> To: John Leslie <john@jlc.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:27:06 EDT." <20051012202706.GB27304@verdi> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:48:36 -0400 From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 827a2a57ca7ab0837847220f447e8d56 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@faster-light.net List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org In message <20051012202706.GB27304@verdi> John Leslie writes: > > Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> wrote: > > > > The deployment of as4bytes is likely to be similar to the deployment > > of bgp4 itself. > > I would hope we could do better -- or at least better than that > transition would be if scaled to today's deployment figures. It actully went quite well. The first BGP4 implementation to be deployed was Cisco, written by Tony, deployed by Sean Doran of Sprintlink, then others. That happenned in about October 1993. The next major hurdle was the NSFNET finishing the gated implementation, that Dennis Furgusson was writing. That was done in very early 1994 and was deployed by about February 1994. In the mean time a few research people like ISI were announcing CIDR routes for testing purposes. At the April 1994 IETF the BGPD WG met and it was decided that BGP4 deployment was widespread enough and nothing bad happenned with the test routes and CIDR was turned on. It worked. What was the problem that you wouldn't want to repeat? First implementation to global deployment in a little over 1/2 year. No negative impacts on the network other that NASA had to take default routes due to their proteon routers. > > In both cases it is known that "bad things can happen" if a subset of > > core AS deploy "the new stuff" and enable "the new features", in this > > case start using 4 byte AS numbers. > > Agreed, "bad things can happen". :^( > > Some of them, I would hope, we can predict and tell folks how to > recognize. That by itself would ease the transition. > > In an ideal world, we could deploy some debugging tools to aid in > finding where the problems originate and how to fix them most quickly. > (Alas, I have no suggestions at the moment.) > > > Since the day that we are actually forced to use 4 byte AS numbers > > is still quite a ways off it is likely that tier-1 and tier-2 > > providers will deploy as4bytes capable code long before any 4 byte > > AS is advertised. > > ... for real customers... > > > It is also likely that providers will coordinate the deployment > > advertising some test AS numbers first. > > Hopefully true. There is no substitute for live testing. > > > It is also possible that straglers will remain that have not deployed > > as4bytes capable code or have not enabled it, but like NASA in 1994 > > who were still running EGP on their Proteon routers and couldn't > > handle CIDR routes for a while, it is likely that these straglers > > are not providing major transit and won't have any impact on the rest > > of the Internet. > > That's a bit optimistic, if you mean that bugs in their code won't > affect the rest of us. Hopefullly it will represent a small minority > of transport, but I'll be surprised if it doesn't consume a larger > share of our time chasing rare problems. > > > Just as at the point of CIDR deployment the rule was "support CIDR or > > use a default route" the rule when as4bytes is deployed may have to be > > "support as4bytes or use a default route". > > It's really not that simple, but certainly having a fallback default > should be strongly recommended for anyone not willing to chase problems. > > The fly in the ointment is that your _own_ router supporting as4bytes > won't protect you from bugs introduced by an OLD BGP middleman. While > there is reason to hope we can "mostly" avoid OLD BGP middlemen, I > don't believe we can entirely avoid them. > > > If we persisted in discussing what happens in arbitrary mixed > > CIDR/non-CIDR and BGP/EGP networks we'd still be running EGP and the > > Internet would have collapsed long ago. > > That was a rather different time. There were a limited number of > backbone routers which _had_to_ support CIDR, and we arranged for them > to do so. The "don't even try to run defaultless without CIDR" rule > was very little hassle. As far as BGP-vs-EGP, folks were welcome to > waste however much time they wanted there, but if they screwed up we > could simply ignore their routes. > > Those rules won't work today. We're going to have to plan a campaign > with no flag days. Backbone routers were spread among commercial and research backbones. I'd guess that there were some 50 organizations that took full routes and had to deploy CIDR capable router code or switch to default. At that time many US states or groups of states had regional networks. Many large US governement agencies had networks providing transit, not just the NSF, there were many separate European networks each run by a private or governement agency int a different country, and there were purely commercial providers as well. The players have changed but the number of players and peering complexity has not changed that radically. CIDR was a much bigger change than as4byte. CIDR could affect everything down to the LAN and even the host. The as4byte changes affect only provider routers running BGP. > > This is not to say that some discussion isn't good but at this point > > we are beating a dead horse. > > "I ain't dead yet!" ;^) > > > Lets move on with as4bytes. We hopefully can assume that intelligent > > people are at the controls at the tier-1 and tier-2 networks for some > > value of intelligent that is sufficient to get this deployment right. > > I don't want to claim there aren't enough intelligent folks there, > but the intelligent ones I know have been known to express such doubts. > Besides, this is a problem of interaction _between_ AS domains: there's > not necessarily any level of intelligence sufficient to keep up with > funky things happening as other AS domains try to adjust to the funky > things they're seening from yet other AS domains... > > We're in WGLC here. However much we wish otherwise, it takes a WGLC > to bring out some issues. We need to be intelligent about whether those > issues are things worth treating in the spec. > > Personally, I see several areas which my experience tells me are > very much worth treating in the spec. YMMV... > > -- > John Leslie <john@jlc.net> If you get 90+% of the networks to transition to being as4byte capable, then run a lot of test routes with 4 byte AS and see where they don't go and also to see that they don't cause trouble where they do go. The first time ISI put a CIDR route into the global routing they repeatedly added it and then withdrew it after a few minutes in case anything bad happenned that they couldn't detect. Others were doing the same and those announcing CIDR test routes were cooperating in the testing. Then put google, yahoo, and a few other biggies behind a 4 bytes AS and watch how fast the other <10% convert. :-) OK so that's not quite practical, but essentially the problem is the occasional uncooperative who doesn't get with the program and doesn't even keep track of what is going on in IETF. With CIDR it was PSI. NASA was cooperative in that they had old unsupported routers and so they used default routing for a while and converted late, but they made it a point not to hold up CIDR deployment. The whole point is that there is no problem using as4byte capable code and using only 2byte AS until there is a need. During that time originating test routes from as4byte test AS around the globe can help flush out the straglers. In this case there is plenty of time. Curtis _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA04172 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPnf3-0005vv-0z; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:57:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPnf1-0005vq-Fj for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:57:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05094 for <idr@ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net ([199.201.159.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPnpO-00050M-BC for idr@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:07:59 -0400 Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 53E8FE04CF; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:57:13 -0400 From: John Leslie <john@jlc.net> To: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [Idr] Revised text on how to construct the AS path info Message-ID: <20051012205713.GD27304@verdi> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: idr@ietf.org, Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com> wrote: > > Attached is the revised text on how to construct the AS path information. I welcome this clarification. It's much easier to determine whether a particular algorithm matches this description. > Please comment if you see any issue. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The exact AS path information can be constructed by taking as many AS > numbers and path segments as necessary from the leading part of the > AS_PATH attribute, This much is clearly correct. > and then prepending them to the NEW_AS_PATH attribute so that the > AS path information has an identical number of AS numbers as the > AS_PATH attribute. It's very important to be clear that the AS_PATH "length" MUST be the same as the AS_PATH received from the OLD BGP speaker. This algorithm should be appropriate, provided a reasonable test for consistency between AS_PATH and NEW_AS_PATH is performed. (I'd be happy to discuss my ideas for such a test.) I think we need to add a provision that the NLRI MAY (or even SHOULD) be discarded if the two are inconsistent. > The number of AS numbers is calculated... I'd prefer not to comment on this part: I haven't examined it in detail. At first blush, it looks right. -- John Leslie <john@jlc.net> _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA03980 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPnVT-0007Cb-63; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:47:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPnVR-0007CV-IG for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:47:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA04459 for <idr@ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net ([199.201.159.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPnfo-0004fQ-5R for idr@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:58:05 -0400 Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 8B7EAE0585; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:47:19 -0400 From: John Leslie <john@jlc.net> To: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt Message-ID: <20051012204719.GC27304@verdi> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <20051010151650.GB45489@verdi> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510101622220.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <20051011155325.GI45489@verdi> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510111919200.3396@sheen.jakma.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510111919200.3396@sheen.jakma.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Paul and I have hashed out a few things privately. I'd like to update folks on stuff I think we've agreed not to argue on the list: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> wrote: > On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, John Leslie wrote: > >> >> So while I agree we don't know which path is "wrong", we do know >> which one the peer we got it from will use. I believe Paul is ready to humor me here. >> Thus, we know which one is "better". But not here. I promise not to argue "better". >> I fail to see how discarding the UPDATE could be appropriate. I can't say we're particularly close to agreement, but I have agreed that discarding the NLRI in an UPDATE containing an AS_PATH and a NEW_AS_PATH known to be inconsistent is a valid action. I believe that discarding such NLRIs _should_ be permitted in the spec. >> I really don't see any way to "reconcile" the paths. I think we've agreed to stop using that word. >> We'd be better advised to choose, IMHO. >> >> And I'd advise choosing to "retrofit". We're going to be stuck >> with a mixture of systems for many years into the future. >> (Hopefully, systems nearest the backbone will become NEW BGP >> quickly when ASNs greater than 65535 are allocated; but purchase >> cycles will drag on in both directions. Near the edge, nothing >> _has_to_ happen until you want to peer with an AS > 65535.) I've agreed to stop trying to draw a distinction between "retrofit" and "tunnel". > It's the other way around more likely. The edges of the internet are > more likely to go NEW first... We've agreed that we should spec a transition which can work either way (backbone going 4-byte first or edges going 4-byte first). > What good reason is there to /not/ mandate that AS_TRANS expressed > 4-byte ASN form is an error? We've made some progress here. We're still hung up over calling it an "error", but we've agreed it could happen in the wild, and that a BGP speaker with AS > 65535 _should_ discard 4-byte NLRIs containing it, since they could represent routing loops. -- John Leslie <john@jlc.net> _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA03777 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPme3-0003Yi-BZ; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:52:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPmc2-0002eq-8M; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:50:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14495; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [132.151.6.50] (helo=newodin.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPmmL-0005Of-6b; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:00:45 -0400 Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EPmbx-0000VK-9W; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:50:01 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <E1EPmbx-0000VK-9W@newodin.ietf.org> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 15:50:01 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Cc: idr@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-rfc2796bis-02.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing Working Group of the IETF. Title : BGP Route Reflection - An Alternative to Full Mesh IBGP Author(s) : T. Bates, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-idr-rfc2796bis-02.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2005-10-12 The Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) is an inter-autonomous system routing protocol designed for TCP/IP internets. Typically all BGP speakers within a single AS must be fully meshed so that any external routing information must be re-distributed to all other routers within that AS. This represents a serious scaling problem that has been well documented with several alternatives proposed. This document describes the use and design of a method known as "Route Reflection" to alleviate the the need for "full mesh" IBGP. 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-10-12104145.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-rfc2796bis-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-idr-rfc2796bis-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-10-12104145.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --NextPart-- Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA03771 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPnCE-0007Hr-Qy; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:27:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPnCD-0007H0-7J for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:27:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA28958 for <idr@ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:27:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net ([199.201.159.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPnMX-0002Y9-C8 for idr@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:38:12 -0400 Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id 1B404E0595; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:27:06 -0400 From: John Leslie <john@jlc.net> To: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt Message-ID: <20051012202706.GB27304@verdi> References: <200510111734.j9BHYi7a017649@workhorse.faster-light.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200510111734.j9BHYi7a017649@workhorse.faster-light.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> wrote: > > The deployment of as4bytes is likely to be similar to the deployment > of bgp4 itself. I would hope we could do better -- or at least better than that transition would be if scaled to today's deployment figures. > In both cases it is known that "bad things can happen" if a subset of > core AS deploy "the new stuff" and enable "the new features", in this > case start using 4 byte AS numbers. Agreed, "bad things can happen". :^( Some of them, I would hope, we can predict and tell folks how to recognize. That by itself would ease the transition. In an ideal world, we could deploy some debugging tools to aid in finding where the problems originate and how to fix them most quickly. (Alas, I have no suggestions at the moment.) > Since the day that we are actually forced to use 4 byte AS numbers > is still quite a ways off it is likely that tier-1 and tier-2 > providers will deploy as4bytes capable code long before any 4 byte > AS is advertised. ... for real customers... > It is also likely that providers will coordinate the deployment > advertising some test AS numbers first. Hopefully true. There is no substitute for live testing. > It is also possible that straglers will remain that have not deployed > as4bytes capable code or have not enabled it, but like NASA in 1994 > who were still running EGP on their Proteon routers and couldn't > handle CIDR routes for a while, it is likely that these straglers > are not providing major transit and won't have any impact on the rest > of the Internet. That's a bit optimistic, if you mean that bugs in their code won't affect the rest of us. Hopefullly it will represent a small minority of transport, but I'll be surprised if it doesn't consume a larger share of our time chasing rare problems. > Just as at the point of CIDR deployment the rule was "support CIDR or > use a default route" the rule when as4bytes is deployed may have to be > "support as4bytes or use a default route". It's really not that simple, but certainly having a fallback default should be strongly recommended for anyone not willing to chase problems. The fly in the ointment is that your _own_ router supporting as4bytes won't protect you from bugs introduced by an OLD BGP middleman. While there is reason to hope we can "mostly" avoid OLD BGP middlemen, I don't believe we can entirely avoid them. > If we persisted in discussing what happens in arbitrary mixed > CIDR/non-CIDR and BGP/EGP networks we'd still be running EGP and the > Internet would have collapsed long ago. That was a rather different time. There were a limited number of backbone routers which _had_to_ support CIDR, and we arranged for them to do so. The "don't even try to run defaultless without CIDR" rule was very little hassle. As far as BGP-vs-EGP, folks were welcome to waste however much time they wanted there, but if they screwed up we could simply ignore their routes. Those rules won't work today. We're going to have to plan a campaign with no flag days. > This is not to say that some discussion isn't good but at this point > we are beating a dead horse. "I ain't dead yet!" ;^) > Lets move on with as4bytes. We hopefully can assume that intelligent > people are at the controls at the tier-1 and tier-2 networks for some > value of intelligent that is sufficient to get this deployment right. I don't want to claim there aren't enough intelligent folks there, but the intelligent ones I know have been known to express such doubts. Besides, this is a problem of interaction _between_ AS domains: there's not necessarily any level of intelligence sufficient to keep up with funky things happening as other AS domains try to adjust to the funky things they're seening from yet other AS domains... We're in WGLC here. However much we wish otherwise, it takes a WGLC to bring out some issues. We need to be intelligent about whether those issues are things worth treating in the spec. Personally, I see several areas which my experience tells me are very much worth treating in the spec. YMMV... -- John Leslie <john@jlc.net> _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA01415 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:56:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPjsS-0003QM-RY; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:54:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPjsQ-0003Nb-5E for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:54:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05153 for <idr@ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:54:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gateout01.mbox.net ([165.212.64.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPk2i-0000ai-AJ for idr@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:05:31 -0400 Received: from gateout01.mbox.net (gateout01.mbox.net [165.212.64.21]) by gateout01.mbox.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 697F412D6AB; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:54:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateout01.mbox.net [127.0.0.1] by gateout01.mbox.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.25R) with ESMTP id 342JJLq3T0314Mo1; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:54:20 GMT Received: from gateout01.mbox.net [127.0.0.1] by gateout01.mbox.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.25R) with ESMTP id 341JJLq3s0065Mo1; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:54:17 GMT X-USANET-Routed: 2 gwsout-vs R:localhost:1825 Received: from gw4.EXCHPROD.USA.NET [165.212.116.254] by gateout01.mbox.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.26F); Wed, 12 Oct 2005 16:54:17 GMT X-USANET-Source: 165.212.116.254 IN jhaas@nexthop.com gw4.EXCHPROD.USA.NET X-USANET-MsgId: XID888JJLq3s1443Xo1 Received: from localhost ([65.247.36.31]) by gw4.EXCHPROD.USA.NET over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:53:44 -0600 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:53:43 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@nexthop.com> To: Geoff Huston <gih@apnic.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] Revised text for the 4-byte AS draft - IANA Considerations Message-ID: <20051012165343.GU25945@nexthop.com> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20051013014830.02e5db68@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20051013014830.02e5db68@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2005 16:53:44.0916 (UTC) FILETIME=[81ED2140:01C5CF4D] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Geoff, On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 02:01:35AM +1000, Geoff Huston wrote: > The alternative is to propose an augmentation of the existing AS number > registry where the first 65536 numbers are noted as "2-Byte compliant" > numbers, and the remainder of the registry are "4-Byte-only" values. I prefer this option. While mistakes are probably rare at best, this narrows (eliminates) the chances of a mistake causing a conflict between the registries. -- Jeff Haas NextHop Technologies _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA01246 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPjdk-0006IS-4s; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:39:40 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPjdi-0006Hj-EQ for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:39:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04256 for <idr@ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net ([203.50.0.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPjo2-0000At-DI for idr@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:50:20 -0400 Received: from gihm3.apnic.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j9CGcdXt087713; Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:38:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@apnic.net) Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051013014830.02e5db68@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:01:35 +1000 To: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com>, idr@ietf.org From: Geoff Huston <gih@apnic.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] Revised text for the 4-byte AS draft - IANA Considerations In-Reply-To: <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org If we are considering another round of this draft, then we may want to add one further paragraph into the IANA Considerations section namely: -------------------- IANA is to create a 4-Byte AS Number Registry, where the registry's entries for 4-Byte AS numbers from 0 to 65535 refer to the IANA "AUTONOMOUS SYSTEM NUMBERS" registry, including listed reservations, allocations and special designations. All future changes in the existing "AUTONOMOUS SYSTEM NUMBERS REGISTRY" are also to be treated in the same way in the 4-Byte AS number registry. No further 4-Byte AS Number reservations or special designations apart from those noted here are proposed by this document. ------------------- Is this proposed text in the IANA Considerations of the draft acceptable to the WG? (Its either that or we need to do a special purpose document later on in order to open up this IANA registry.) The alternative is to propose an augmentation of the existing AS number registry where the first 65536 numbers are noted as "2-Byte compliant" numbers, and the remainder of the registry are "4-Byte-only" values. I do not recall seeing any precedent here in the IANA registries as to which is a better way to go, but at least the text proposed here is a placeholder that can be reviewed by the IANA during the IESG evaluation. If there is a better idea as to the best way to undertake the IANA registry, then it can be considered at that point in time. regards, Geoff _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA25740 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 04:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPbpw-00051H-WE; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 04:19:45 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPbpv-000512-5I for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 04:19:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA04791 for <idr@ietf.org>; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 04:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hibernia.jakma.org ([212.17.55.49] ident=[U2FsdGVkX1+kfFc9ET8W3p1R0T0DlUvJoBLqWq8Lf4Y=]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPc0B-00026t-W9 for idr@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 04:30:20 -0400 Received: from sheen.jakma.org (sheen.jakma.org [212.17.55.53]) by hibernia.jakma.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j9C8J9FJ028453; Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:19:15 +0100 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:20:51 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> X-X-Sender: paul@sheen.jakma.org To: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510120828570.3396@sheen.jakma.org> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> Mail-Copies-To: paul@hibernia.jakma.org X-NSA: al aqsar jihad musharef jet-A1 avgas ammonium qran inshallah allah al-akbar martyr iraq saddam hammas hisballah rabin ayatollah korea vietnam revolt mustard gas british airways washington peroxide cool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87, clamav-milter version 0.87 on hibernia.jakma.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Cc: idr@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] Re: Revised text on how to construct the AS path info X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Hi Enke, On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Enke Chen wrote: > Hi, folks: > > Attached is the revised text on how to construct the AS path information. > > Please comment if you see any issue. Seems acceptable to me[1]. The issue of what to do if we detect an OLD speaker has done aggregation is still open though: - If AGGREGATOR does not contain AS_TRANS then: - an OLD speaker, which tries to include unknown attributes of aggregated routes in aggregates, has aggregated the route (these kinds of speakers are rare apparently?) - NEW_AGGREGATOR should then be ignored (I believe you will be specifying this in a new revision) This implies though that NEW_AS_PATH is *also* 'stale' and therefore the merging method will not be appropriate. I'd suggest at least: - Also ignore NEW_AS_PATH if NEW_AGGREGATOR is ignored - has an issue in what do about AS_TRANS's in the 2-byte path - just remove it? (Section 7 mentions risks with aggregates, as you pointed out to me privately) This seems far more appropriate than just merging AS_PATH and NEW_AS_PATH given that doing so would likely replace the aggregate's AS_SET information with completely different information from a stale NEW_AS_PATH, or possibly fail to include /any/ portion of the 2-byte path in the merged path. (For in such a case the path length of the NEW_AS_PATH no longer would have any strong correlation to the path length of any trailing portion of the OLD AS_PATH, so the method to determine which part is 'leading' would produce a meaningless result - eg, it might indicate the AS_PATH has /no/ leading portion at all, or even a 'negative' leading portion ;) ). It's still sufficiently simple given that this condition will likely be rare and the draft is willing to live with uncommon risks, particulary wrt aggregation. E.g: move the text about ignoring NEW_AGGREGATOR to /before/ the text about NEW_AS_PATH and make the text concerning AS_PATH/NEW_AS_PATH be something like: - if NEW_AGGREGATOR was present but has been ignored: - ignore NEW_AS_PATH - just strip AS_TRANS from the 2-byte AS_PATH and form the 4-byte PATH directly from the result - else - perform the merging process (i.e. the updated text you posted) The risks could be mitigated better, but with a more involved process of course. > -- Enke 1. Though, ideally, I'd prefer to see the NEW speaker actually check the 2 paths make sense against each other, given the speaker doing the merging is the only speaker who could detect any such inconsistencies. After merging, the information will be lost. Also, the implementation report strongly suggests that at least one of the implementations /does/ attempt to detect inconsistencies... ;) regards, -- Paul Jakma paul@clubi.ie paul@jakma.org Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: "The four building blocks of the universe are fire, water, gravel and vinyl." -- Dave Barry _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA20920 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPVPu-00005F-E2; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:28:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPVPs-000058-Nl for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:28:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA18133 for <idr@ietf.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:28:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com ([171.68.10.86]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPVa5-0000g7-BB for idr@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:38:58 -0400 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Oct 2005 18:28:15 -0700 Received: from [128.107.134.9] (enke-linux.cisco.com [128.107.134.9]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j9C1S68k018348; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434C66AC.7080506@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:28:12 -0700 From: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: idr@ietf.org References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> Subject: [Idr] Revised text on how to construct the AS path info X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Hi, folks: Attached is the revised text on how to construct the AS path information. Please comment if you see any issue. > Will clarify on how to re-construct the as-path. Will send out the > text when it is ready. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The exact AS path information can be constructed by taking as many AS numbers and path segments as necessary from the leading part of the AS_PATH attribute, and then prepending them to the NEW_AS_PATH attribute so that the AS path information has an identical number of AS numbers as the AS_PATH attribute. The number of AS numbers is calculated using the method specified in Sect. 9.1.2.2 [BGP-4] and [RFC3065] for route selection. Note that an AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE or AS_CONFED_SET path segment is counted as zero, and SHALL be prepended when it is adjacent to another path segment that is prepended. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Enke _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16977 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPPGT-0001AI-78; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:54:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPPGS-0001AD-JS for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:54:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22035 for <idr@ietf.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hibernia.jakma.org ([212.17.55.49] ident=[U2FsdGVkX18f1gGHKwZ7g1LI5qoY+AkXatW67BcP1S0=]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPPQa-0004bs-Qt for idr@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:04:46 -0400 Received: from sheen.jakma.org (sheen.jakma.org [212.17.55.53]) by hibernia.jakma.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j9BIrtqq019759; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:53:58 +0100 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:55:28 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> X-X-Sender: paul@sheen.jakma.org To: John Leslie <john@jlc.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510111919200.3396@sheen.jakma.org> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510111952080.3396@sheen.jakma.org> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <20051010151650.GB45489@verdi> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510101622220.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <20051011155325.GI45489@verdi> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510111919200.3396@sheen.jakma.org> Mail-Copies-To: paul@hibernia.jakma.org X-NSA: al aqsar jihad musharef jet-A1 avgas ammonium qran inshallah allah al-akbar martyr iraq saddam hammas hisballah rabin ayatollah korea vietnam revolt mustard gas british airways washington peroxide cool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87, clamav-milter version 0.87 on hibernia.jakma.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Paul Jakma wrote: > tend to be leaf sites). Indeed the 'backbone' of the internet could stay OLD > forever, with edge ASes NEW and it'd still work fine. NB: That's not to say this would be a good thing. It'd be /far/ better if everyone got themselves NEW capable long before the first 4-byte AS appears. Just the draft /would/ allow for NEW functionality to just sit at the edges. (But then switching the remaining transit ASes to NEW would be murder). regards, -- Paul Jakma paul@clubi.ie paul@jakma.org Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Measure twice, cut once. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16941 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPPC3-0000Ud-NP; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:49:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPPC2-0000UP-2t for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:49:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21778 for <idr@ietf.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:49:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hibernia.jakma.org ([212.17.55.49] ident=[U2FsdGVkX18kBYwjianZRwIS3vU4yd2gOFlCHL8PNB0=]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPPMB-0004U7-GE for idr@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:00:12 -0400 Received: from sheen.jakma.org (sheen.jakma.org [212.17.55.53]) by hibernia.jakma.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j9BInLDc019723; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:49:27 +0100 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:50:53 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> X-X-Sender: paul@sheen.jakma.org To: John Leslie <john@jlc.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-Reply-To: <20051011155325.GI45489@verdi> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510111919200.3396@sheen.jakma.org> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <20051010151650.GB45489@verdi> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510101622220.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <20051011155325.GI45489@verdi> Mail-Copies-To: paul@hibernia.jakma.org X-NSA: al aqsar jihad musharef jet-A1 avgas ammonium qran inshallah allah al-akbar martyr iraq saddam hammas hisballah rabin ayatollah korea vietnam revolt mustard gas british airways washington peroxide cool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87, clamav-milter version 0.87 on hibernia.jakma.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, John Leslie wrote: > Following this principle, I prefer to use the 2-octet-AS path info > I get from my OLD BGP peer unless I'm confident I can do better. > (Arguably, we'd be better off to ignore NEW_AS_PATH entirely, but > that would sentence folks with AS > 65535 to never detect their > loops.) > > So while I agree we don't know which path is "wrong", we do know > which one the peer we got it from will use. The peer you got it from is OLD and is in the dark anyway wrt 4-byte ASNs. The 2-byte AS_PATH is therefore already incomplete and "wrong". > Thus, we know which one is "better". > I fail to see how discarding the UPDATE could be appropriate. I disagree. Propogating known-inconsistent routes onward is asking for trouble during any transition period. If there's an inconsistency between the two something has either gone badly wrong somewhere, or an OLD speaker in the path somewhere has decided to make major modifications to the 2-byte AS_PATH for reasons known only to itself (an attacker?), specifically modifying the portions that contained mapped-to-2byte ASNs, not realising it's destroying information it doesn't fully comprehend. > I really don't see any way to "reconcile" the paths. Sure there is, there has to be or this draft just can not work at all. And if the 2 paths are consistent (and there isn't a good reason for them not to be) then it's easy. ;) >> Ah, indeed yes, that needs clarification too. If AGGREGATOR is /not/ >> AS_TRANS then indeed AGGREGATOR is the last aggregator, and >> NEW_AGGREGATOR is just simply stale. > > True. The draft though says NEW_AGGREGATOR should always be used by a NEW speaker over AGGREGATOR. So that needs to be fixed in the draft too. > We'd be better advised to choose, IMHO. > > And I'd advise choosing to "retrofit". We're going to be stuck > with a mixture of systems for many years into the future. > (Hopefully, systems nearest the backbone will become NEW BGP > quickly when ASNs greater than 65535 are allocated; but purchase > cycles will drag on in both directions. Near the edge, nothing > _has_to_ happen until you want to peer with an AS > 65535.) It's the other way around more likely. The edges of the internet are more likely to go NEW first (new ASes, the ones which will get 4-byte ASNs first, tend to be leaf sites). Indeed the 'backbone' of the internet could stay OLD forever, with edge ASes NEW and it'd still work fine. If we presume new ASes with 4-byte ASNs get NEW equipment, then we can imagine various 'edges' of the internet will look like: A-B---<rest of internet> / C If A, B and C are 4-byte, then it just works. To the 'core' of the internet, if still 2-byte, it just looks as if there's some new super-AS (AS_TRANS) slowly taking over all the new leaf ASes on the internet ;). > Well, that's an open question: if indeed the draft says it MUST be > discarded and the NEW_AS_PATH patched in for the remainder, there > MIGHT be no reason to see it coming from a NEW BGP speaker to > another NEW BGP speaker. > But IMHO the draft does _not_ say that. Nor IMHO should it. It doesn't say it, no. I suspect it should though, as seeing AS_TRANS in a 4-byte AS_PATH would be a strong indicator someone screwed up. What good reason is there to /not/ mandate that AS_TRANS expressed 4-byte ASN form is an error? > IMHO, the draft needs editing to clarify whether we're > retrofitting or tunneling. (I trust my recommendation between these > is clear.) I'm not sure why it makes a difference :). We're moving from 2 to 4 bytes for ASNs, retrofitting 4-bytes on the existing BGP protocol and providing for some form of tunneling of 4-byte AS_PATH's through BGP speakers as a transitional mechanism. regards, -- Paul Jakma paul@clubi.ie paul@jakma.org Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: He who has but four and spends five has no need for a wallet. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA16192 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPO62-0004V1-AV; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:39:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPO60-0004Ut-CU for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:39:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17279 for <idr@ietf.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay00.pair.com ([209.68.5.9] helo=relay.pair.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPOG8-0002QP-Li for idr@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:49:53 -0400 Received: (qmail 87554 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2005 17:39:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO workhorse.faster-light.net) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 11 Oct 2005 17:39:11 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 69.37.59.162 Received: from workhorse.faster-light.net (localhost.faster-light.net [127.0.0.1]) by workhorse.faster-light.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9BHYi7a017649 for <idr@ietf.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:34:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@workhorse.faster-light.net) Message-Id: <200510111734.j9BHYi7a017649@workhorse.faster-light.net> To: idr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:34:44 -0400 From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@faster-light.net List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org The deployment of as4bytes is likely to be similar to the deployment of bgp4 itself. In both cases it is known that "bad things can happen" if a subset of core AS deploy "the new stuff" and enable "the new features", in this case start using 4 byte AS numbers. Since the day that we are actaully forced to use 4 byte AS numbers is still quite a ways off it is likely that tier-1 and tier-2 providers will deploy as4bytes capable code long before any 4 byte AS is advertised. It is also likely that providers will coordinate the deployment advertising some test AS numbers first. It is also possible that straglers will remain that have not deployed as4bytes capable code or have not enabled it, but like NASA in 1994 who were still running EGP on their Proteon routers and couldn't handle CIDR routes for a while, it is likely that these straglers are not providing major transit and won't have any impact on the rest of the Internet. Just as at the point of CIDR deployment the rule was "support CIDR or use a default route" the rule when as4bytes is deployed may have to be "support as4bytes or use a default route". If we persisted in discussing what happens in arbitrary mixed CIDR/non-CIDR and BGP/EGP networks we'd still be running EGP and the Internet would have collapsed long ago. This is not to say that some discussion isn't good but at this point we are beating a dead horse. Lets move on with as4bytes. We hopefully can assume that intelligent people are at the controls at the tier-1 and tier-2 networks for some value of intelligent that is sufficient to get this deployment right. Curtis _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA14989 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPMRh-0003Rg-UE; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:53:41 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPMRh-0003Rb-7i for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:53:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA10840 for <idr@ietf.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net ([199.201.159.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPMbm-0007fF-S2 for idr@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 12:04:09 -0400 Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id D2C7DE0568; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:53:25 -0400 From: John Leslie <john@jlc.net> To: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt Message-ID: <20051011155325.GI45489@verdi> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <20051010151650.GB45489@verdi> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510101622220.3396@sheen.jakma.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510101622220.3396@sheen.jakma.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: dbb8771284c7a36189745aa720dc20ab Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> wrote: > On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, John Leslie wrote: > > >] * It isn't clear what to do if the information in the old as-path > >] is inconsistent with the information in the new as-path. > > > > It seems to me that NEW_AS_PATH information inconsistent with > > AS_PATH information MUST be discarded. Can't we say so? > > I'd say the whole UPDATE would have to be discarded, you have no way > of knowing exactly which of the two paths is "wrong", nor any way to > properly reconstruct the path. Recall that the _result_ of all our routing-protocol machinations is that a packet will be passed to the "most appropriate" next-hop. Thus, IMHO, what the peer-you-will-choose doesn't know, can't help you. Following this principle, I prefer to use the 2-octet-AS path info I get from my OLD BGP peer unless I'm confident I can do better. (Arguably, we'd be better off to ignore NEW_AS_PATH entirely, but that would sentence folks with AS > 65535 to never detect their loops.) So while I agree we don't know which path is "wrong", we do know which one the peer we got it from will use. Thus, we know which one is "better". I fail to see how discarding the UPDATE could be appropriate. >>] AS_PATH attribute). This AS path information should be prepended to >>] the NEW_AS_PATH attribute to construct the exact AS path information. >> >> This last sentence is inconsistent with discarding NEW_AS_PATH >> information which is inconsistent with AS_PATH information. > > Indeed, but the draft does not specify anywhere what action (if any) > should be taken if the paths are found to be inconsistent. But that > might be cause it doesn't describe in any meaningful way how to > reconcile the different paths. I really don't see any way to "reconcile" the paths. I've stated my preference; the draft seems to choose the opposite direction. Possibly we can nag Bill or Alex into suggesting a resolution. >> I find this worrisome. Any OLD BGP speakers will have been quite >> unaware of the meaning of NEW-AGGREGATOR attributes they pass on. I >> don't think we can ensure they _never_ introduce or modify an >> AGGREGATOR attribute. I would be more comfortable if we examined >> any NEW-AGGREGATOR attribute to clarify ambiguity in 2-octet >> numbers in the AGGREGATOR attribute. > > Ah, indeed yes, that needs clarification too. If AGGREGATOR is /not/ > AS_TRANS then indeed AGGREGATOR is the last aggregator, and > NEW_AGGREGATOR is just simply stale. True. > > There is a philosophical question here: whether we're > > retrofitting 4-octet AS numbers into an existing system, or whether > > we're piecing together a new system of 4-octet AS numbers with some > > fudging of how we tunnel through existing systems. Personally, I > > prefer the first. > > I think it's a bit of both. We'd be better advised to choose, IMHO. And I'd advise choosing to "retrofit". We're going to be stuck with a mixture of systems for many years into the future. (Hopefully, systems nearest the backbone will become NEW BGP quickly when ASNs greater than 65535 are allocated; but purchase cycles will drag on in both directions. Near the edge, nothing _has_to_ happen until you want to peer with an AS > 65535.) >> Instead, we'd do well to match the trailing n ASNs, substituting >> 4-octet ASNs for AS_TRANS while the match remains good -- and >> dropping back to the original AS_PATH if the match fails. > > If the match fails, you have no clue who ferked up. NEW_AS_PATH > /should/ be the canonical path information though for the further > portion of the composite path. But if the further portion of the > 2-byte path does not coincide with the same further portion of the > NEW_AS_PATH then either: > > - an OLD speaker decided to modify bits of the path prior to it > - eg to aggregate it, in which case reconstructing the full > composite PATH involves more than just appending/prepending > - the NEW speaker who formed the NEW_AS_PATH screwed up > > - ??? Mostly (IMHO), it's the second case. Let us not forget that the "B" of "BGP" is for "border". IOW, the border of what we have good reason to trust. We're getting stuff from peers we have limited reason to trust. They're passing on stuff from peers _they_ have limited reason to trust. So most of the stuff we deal with we have _no_ good reason to trust: it's merely "good enough for best-effort". The days are _long_ gone when we could trust BB&N to keep all the routing information consistent. If there ever was a time we could trust Cisco to keep stuff consistent throughout the network of their routers, that too is long gone. >> (There is a weird case where the matching 4-octet AS _is_ >> AS_TRANS, which IMHO is _not_ an error.) > > It is an error, AS_TRANS is reserved and its only described use is to > denote 4-byte ASNs in 2-bytes. Hence there is no reason (within this > draft at least) to see it in 4-byte space. Well, that's an open question: if indeed the draft says it MUST be discarded and the NEW_AS_PATH patched in for the remainder, there MIGHT be no reason to see it coming from a NEW BGP speaker to another NEW BGP speaker. But IMHO the draft does _not_ say that. Nor IMHO should it. >> I'd frankly prefer a full algorithm: otherwise we can't put very >> much confidence in the result. >> >> But I'll admit that differing algorithms _might_ not be especially >> harmful, so long as they preserve the AS_PATH _length_... > > The draft at least should state what it *intends the result* from > merging the OLD and NEW paths to be, and perhaps offer one example > algorithm. IMHO, the draft needs editing to clarify whether we're retrofitting or tunneling. (I trust my recommendation between these is clear.) -- John Leslie <john@jlc.net> _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA13727 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPKdT-0003wl-Cw; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:57:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EPKdR-0003wg-Pg for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:57:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA24762 for <idr@ietf.org>; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gateout01.mbox.net ([165.212.64.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EPKnY-0001Lm-2y for idr@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:08:09 -0400 Received: from gateout01.mbox.net (gateout01.mbox.net [165.212.64.21]) by gateout01.mbox.net (Postfix) with SMTP id DDBB812D3E0; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:57:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateout01.mbox.net [127.0.0.1] by gateout01.mbox.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.25R) with ESMTP id 763JJkN6L0492Mo1; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:57:12 GMT Received: from gateout01.mbox.net [127.0.0.1] by gateout01.mbox.net via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.25R) with ESMTP id 756JJkN6J0492Mo1; Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:57:10 GMT X-USANET-Routed: 2 gwsout-vs R:localhost:1825 Received: from gw2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET [165.212.116.254] by gateout01.mbox.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.26F); Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:57:09 GMT X-USANET-Source: 165.212.116.254 IN jhaas@nexthop.com gw2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET X-USANET-MsgId: XID451JJkN6k1821Xo1 Received: from localhost ([65.247.36.31]) by gw2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:57:09 -0600 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:57:08 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@nexthop.com> To: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt Message-ID: <20051011135708.GO25945@nexthop.com> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Oct 2005 13:57:09.0557 (UTC) FILETIME=[AC2FE650:01C5CE6B] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: idr@ietf.org, Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, Oct 10, 2005 at 11:59:56AM -0700, Enke Chen wrote: > * There some places where AS numbers are used where it wasn't > clear how to deal with 4-octet as-numbers (e.g. extended > communities). > > Not a problem as the extended community spec has allocated type code for > 4-byte ASs. In extended communities, the type may have as much to do with the community being unique as does the contents. RT-100:1 != RT4-100:1 Or at least this is one way to interpret the current spec. -- Jeff Haas NextHop Technologies _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA00979 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EP2si-0001uv-Qe; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:00:16 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EP2sf-0001uf-LL for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:00:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13037 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com ([171.68.10.86]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EP32a-0005Er-Tl for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:10:31 -0400 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Oct 2005 12:00:00 -0700 Received: from [128.107.134.9] (enke-linux.cisco.com [128.107.134.9]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j9AIxxuk020520; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434ABA2C.1070608@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:59:56 -0700 From: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f49c97ce49302a02285a2d36a99eef8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Paul: Paul Jakma wrote: > On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Yakov Rekhter wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> This is to start the WG Last Call on advancing >> draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt to a Proposed Standard. The >> implementation report is draft-huston-idr-as4bytes-survey-00.txt. > > > 1. Surely the questions raised in the implementation report should > first be at least examined, if not addressed? (concerns 5.2.3 at > least, see 3.). We did examine the questions raised: * It isn't clear what to do if the information in the old as-path is inconsistent with the information in the new as-path. There is no good answer here - but will clarify on re-constructing the as-path. * There some places where AS numbers are used where it wasn't clear how to deal with 4-octet as-numbers (e.g. extended communities). Not a problem as the extended community spec has allocated type code for 4-byte ASs. * It isn't spelled out that this capability cannot be dynamically negotiated. Not a problem for the revised version of the dynamic capability - although there is no reason to make the capability dynamic in this case. > > 2. Section 5.3 should be deleted, I'm not sure how this draft could > ever mandate behaviour for OLD speakers, when OLD specifically is > defined to be those peers which do not implemented the extensions > defined in the draft. ;) Will delete the section. > > 3. NEW_AS_PATH parsing/actions are barely specified. > > Eg: > > NEW NEW NEW OLD OLD NEW > AS256---AS200000---AS512---AS1024---AS2048---AS4096 > > According to 5.2.2, AS512 should create an AS_PATH attribute for > AS1024 that preserves the path-length by representing each 4-byte ASN > with AS_TRANS, and should construct NEW_AS_PATH as per AS_PATH (the > AS_PATH as received previously presumably). So AS1024 would receive: > > AS_PATH: seq(512,AS_TRANS,256) > NEW_AS_PATH: seq(200000,256) > > AS4096 would receive: > > AS_PATH: seq(2048,1024,512,AS_TRANS,256) > NEW_AS_PATH: seq(200000,256) > > 5.2.3 states that: > > "<leading part of AS_PATH information> should be prepended to the > NEW_AS_PATH attribute to construct the exact AS path information." > > Where "leading part" are those ASN that are only 2-byte and OLD. But > we're not told how one should deduce where this leading part finishes. > The simplistic approach of "closest AS_TRANS marks end of leading > part", which is suggested by definition of "leading part" would give us: > > seq(2048,1024,512,200000,256) > > Which is the correct result, however the method is wrong. Imagine if > the 200000 and 256 are the other way around: > > AS_PATH: seq(2048,1024,512,256,AS_TRANS) > NEW_AS_PATH: seq(256,200000) > > Using previous method would give: > > seq(2048,1024,512,256,256,200000) > > Which result is wrong :). Obviously, one should use the n #-of-ASNs in > the *NEW_AS_PATH* as the *trailing* part of the real AS_PATH > information and override the last n ASNs in the AS_PATH. So why > doesn't the draft state this? ;) Will clarify on how to re-construct the as-path. Will send out the text when it is ready. > > I.e. The full process should preferably be *documented* in the draft, > but at a minimum this vague (if not slightly misleading) 'prepend > leading part of AS_PATH' language should be removed. > > Also, if a process to reconcile AS_PATH and NEW_AS_PATH is to be > described (I think it should ;) ), obvious questions arise, as one > responder to the implementation report hints at: > > a) Should/Must the "overriden" ASNs in the AS_PATH be reconciled > against the NEW_AS_PATH ASNs which are replacing them? > > b) If so, what if they can /not/ be reconciled? > > 4. Some mention, surely, could be made of the issues protocol > decoders will face, and of the ASN allocation strategy which could > help remove this issue? (It has a cost of one additional reserved > 2-byte ASN). Not sure if this is necessary (based on the previous discussions). > > 5. 5.2.3 contains the following statement: > > "<the NEW_AS_PATH> attribute may not have been updated since the route > left the last NEW BGP speaker." > > Which raises the question of how exactly any speaker besides a NEW (or > NEW-compatible) speaker would modify NEW_AS_PATH? Indeed, NEW_AS_PATH > can /not/ propogate across NEW speakers. The last speaker to have > "modified" NEW_AS_PATH is, by the language of the draft, the NEW > speaker which formed it which must therefore be the last NEW speaker. > So the "may not" should read "will not" instead. Will revised. Thanks a lot! -- Enke _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA00333 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EP1xW-0004nz-Sd; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:01:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EP1xV-0004nq-14 for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:01:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09559 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netcore.fi ([193.94.160.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EP27Q-0003Y5-F7 for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:11:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j9AI0eJ01924; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 21:00:40 +0300 Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 21:00:40 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola <pekkas@netcore.fi> To: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-Reply-To: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510102052520.555@netcore.fi> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: skh@nexthop.com, idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Yakov Rekhter wrote: > This is to start the WG Last Call on advancing draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt > to a Proposed Standard. The implementation report is > draft-huston-idr-as4bytes-survey-00.txt. high-level bits: I don't think I've seen justification for this particular approach; if this is superior to the others for some reason, maybe background could be discussed a bit in the doc (e.g., in a missing "Introduction" section). Specifically, I don't see why we couldn't just simply start using NEW_AS_PATH and NEW_AGGREGATOR and keep the old elements as-is -- changing the encoding of BGP messages based on the negotiated capabilities seems a bit troubling. An additional concern is synthetization of BGP attributes when propagating messages. One could ask whether this is really necessary or not. I think it would be reasonbly to require that each transit AS which would be passing NEW_* attributes should be aware of them. Further, this approach could have security considerations if so/sBGP were to be deployed. editorial nits -------------- numerous nits, such as: - numbered status of this memo/abstract - references in the abstract - a non-ascii character For the purpose of this document lets define a BGP speaker which does ==> s/lets/we/ NEW_AS_PATH. This attribute is optional transitive and contains the ==> s/attribute is optional transitive/is an optional transitive attribute/ (similar elsewhere) -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28856 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOzye-0006j5-Fk; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:54:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOzw8-0006Cv-F0 for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:51:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01757 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hibernia.jakma.org ([212.17.55.49] ident=[U2FsdGVkX19we9nuJQVbXJ2vQHqFS+tNEMLGaiT2yC8=]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EOzu6-0005DE-99 for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:49:31 -0400 Received: from sheen.jakma.org (sheen.jakma.org [212.17.55.53]) by hibernia.jakma.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j9AFd61e031447; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:39:09 +0100 Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:40:20 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> X-X-Sender: paul@sheen.jakma.org To: John Leslie <john@jlc.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-Reply-To: <20051010151650.GB45489@verdi> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510101622220.3396@sheen.jakma.org> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> <20051010151650.GB45489@verdi> Mail-Copies-To: paul@hibernia.jakma.org X-NSA: al aqsar jihad musharef jet-A1 avgas ammonium qran inshallah allah al-akbar martyr iraq saddam hammas hisballah rabin ayatollah korea vietnam revolt mustard gas british airways washington peroxide cool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87, clamav-milter version 0.87 on hibernia.jakma.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, 10 Oct 2005, John Leslie wrote: > ] * It isn't clear what to do if the information in the old as-path > ] is inconsistent with the information in the new as-path. > > It seems to me that NEW_AS_PATH information inconsistent with > AS_PATH information MUST be discarded. Can't we say so? I'd say the whole UPDATE would have to be discarded, you have no way of knowing exactly which of the two paths is "wrong", nor any way to properly reconstruct the path. > ] AS_PATH attribute). This AS path information should be prepended to > ] the NEW_AS_PATH attribute to construct the exact AS path information. > > This last sentence is inconsistent with discarding NEW_AS_PATH > information which is inconsistent with AS_PATH information. Indeed, but the draft does not specify anywhere what action (if any) should be taken if the paths are found to be inconsistent. But that might be cause it doesn't describe in any meaningful way how to reconcile the different paths. > I find this worrisome. Any OLD BGP speakers will have been quite > unaware of the meaning of NEW-AGGREGATOR attributes they pass on. I > don't think we can ensure they _never_ introduce or modify an > AGGREGATOR attribute. I would be more comfortable if we examined > any NEW-AGGREGATOR attribute to clarify ambiguity in 2-octet > numbers in the AGGREGATOR attribute. Ah, indeed yes, that needs clarification too. If AGGREGATOR is /not/ AS_TRANS then indeed AGGREGATOR is the last aggregator, and NEW_AGGREGATOR is just simply stale. > There is a philosophical question here: whether we're > retrofitting 4-octet AS numbers into an existing system, or whether > we're piecing together a new system of 4-octet AS numbers with some > fudging of how we tunnel through existing systems. Personally, I > prefer the first. I think it's a bit of both. >> According to 5.2.2, AS512 should create an AS_PATH attribute for >> AS1024 that preserves the path-length by representing each 4-byte ASN >> with AS_TRANS, and should construct NEW_AS_PATH as per AS_PATH (the >> AS_PATH as received previously presumably). So AS1024 would receive: >> >> AS_PATH: seq(512,AS_TRANS,256) >> NEW_AS_PATH: seq(200000,256) > > Actually, I don't think it's clear whether this NEW_AS_PATH should > or should not contain 512. Yes, that's what I was hinting at with "AS_PATH as received previously presumably" ;) > Paul's algorithm looks safer... > > But IMHO we'd be poorly advised to blindly adopt it either. Oh, ACK. > Instead, we'd do well to match the trailing n ASNs, substituting > 4-octet ASNs for AS_TRANS while the match remains good -- and > dropping back to the original AS_PATH if the match fails. If the match fails, you have no clue who ferked up. NEW_AS_PATH /should/ be the canonical path information though for the further portion of the composite path. But if the further portion of the 2-byte path does not coincide with the same further portion of the NEW_AS_PATH then either: - an OLD speaker decided to modify bits of the path proir to it - eg to aggregate it, in which case reconstructing the full composite PATH involves more than just appending/prepending - the NEW speaker who formed the NEW_AS_PATH screwed up - ??? Actually, is the "OLD speaker aggregated" case even discussed in the draft? > (There is a weird case where the matching 4-octet AS _is_ > AS_TRANS, which IMHO is _not_ an error.) It is an error, AS_TRANS is reserved and its only described use is to denote 4-byte ASNs in 2-bytes. Hence there is no reason (within this draft at least) to see it in 4-byte space. > I'd frankly prefer a full algorithm: otherwise we can't put very > much confidence in the result. > > But I'll admit that differing algorithms _might_ not be especially > harmful, so long as they preserve the AS_PATH _length_... The draft at least should state what it *intends the result* from merging the OLD and NEW paths to be, and perhaps offer one example algorithm. regards, -- Paul Jakma paul@clubi.ie paul@jakma.org Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Ignorance must certainly be bliss or there wouldn't be so many people so resolutely pursuing it. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28527 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOzOh-0002Jq-ME; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:17:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOzOg-0002Jg-BY for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:17:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23743 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:16:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.jlc.net ([199.201.159.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EOzYa-00024g-Mg for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:27:17 -0400 Received: by mailhost.jlc.net (Postfix, from userid 104) id BE0E8E04BB; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:16:50 -0400 From: John Leslie <john@jlc.net> To: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt Message-ID: <20051010151650.GB45489@verdi> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ded6070f7eed56e10c4f4d0d5043d9c7 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> wrote: > > 1. Surely the questions raised in the implementation report should > first be at least examined, if not addressed? To be specific, Juniper reports: ] ] Are there parts of the specification that are unclear where the ] implementor had to exercise some judgement that may impact ] interoperability? ] * It isn't clear what to do if the information in the old as-path ] is inconsistent with the information in the new as-path. It seems to me that NEW_AS_PATH information inconsistent with AS_PATH information MUST be discarded. Can't we say so? ] * There some places where AS numbers are used where it wasn't ] clear how to deal with 4-octet as-numbers (e.g. extended ] communities). This isn't clear to me, either. ] * It isn't spelled out that this capability cannot be dynamically ] negotiated. Actually, I _can_ think how to dynamically negotiate it, but it seems like a bad idea. > (concerns 5.2.3 at least, see 3.). ] ] Note that a route may have traversed a series of autonomous systems ] with 2-octet AS numbers and OLD BGP speakers only. In that case, if ] the route carries a NEW_AS_PATH attribute, this attribute may not ] have been updated since the route left the last NEW BGP speaker. The ] trailing AS path information (representing autonomous systems with ] 2-octet AS numbers and OLD BGP speakers only) is contained only in ] the current AS_PATH attribute (encoded in the leading part of the ] AS_PATH attribute). This AS path information should be prepended to ] the NEW_AS_PATH attribute to construct the exact AS path information. This last sentence is inconsistent with discarding NEW_AS_PATH information which is inconsistent with AS_PATH information. ] Similarly, a NEW BGP speaker should be prepared to receive the ] NEW_AGGREGATOR attribute from an OLD BGP speaker. In that case, the ] AGGREGATOR attribute is ignored and the NEW_AGGREGATOR contains the ] exact information about the aggregating node. I find this worrisome. Any OLD BGP speakers will have been quite unaware of the meaning of NEW-AGGREGATOR attributes they pass on. I don't think we can ensure they _never_ introduce or modify an AGGREGATOR attribute. I would be more comfortable if we examined any NEW-AGGREGATOR attribute to clarify ambiguity in 2-octet numbers in the AGGREGATOR attribute. There is a philosophical question here: whether we're retrofitting 4-octet AS numbers into an existing system, or whether we're piecing together a new system of 4-octet AS numbers with some fudging of how we tunnel through existing systems. Personally, I prefer the first. > 2. Section 5.3 should be deleted, I'm not sure how this draft could > ever mandate behaviour for OLD speakers, when OLD specifically is > defined to be those peers which do not implemented the extensions > defined in the draft. ;) ] ] In all other cases the speaker MUST encode Autonomous System numbers ] as 2-octet entities in both the AS_PATH and the AGGREGATOR attribute ] in the updates it sends to the peer, and MUST assume that these ] attributes in the updates received from the peer encoded Autonomous ] System numbers as 2-octet entities. Our problem is discerning a meaning for "all other cases". I don't think there _is_ a clear meaning here. The section title suggests we're specifying what an OLD BGP speaker MUST do; and that's simply wrong. Deleting the secton seems easiest... > 3. NEW_AS_PATH parsing/actions are barely specified. > > Eg: > > NEW NEW NEW OLD OLD NEW > AS256---AS200000---AS512---AS1024---AS2048---AS4096 > > According to 5.2.2, AS512 should create an AS_PATH attribute for > AS1024 that preserves the path-length by representing each 4-byte ASN > with AS_TRANS, and should construct NEW_AS_PATH as per AS_PATH (the > AS_PATH as received previously presumably). So AS1024 would receive: > > AS_PATH: seq(512,AS_TRANS,256) > NEW_AS_PATH: seq(200000,256) Actually, I don't think it's clear whether this NEW_AS_PATH should or should not contain 512. > AS4096 would receive: > > AS_PATH: seq(2048,1024,512,AS_TRANS,256) > NEW_AS_PATH: seq(200000,256) > > 5.2.3 states that: > > "<leading part of AS_PATH information> should be prepended to the > NEW_AS_PATH attribute to construct the exact AS path information." > > Where "leading part" are those ASN that are only 2-byte and OLD. But > we're not told how one should deduce where this leading part > finishes. The simplistic approach of "closest AS_TRANS marks end of > leading part", This is a very bad algorithm. We cannot, IMHO, ensure that AS_TRANS will not somehow get inserted into a path without there being a corresponding entry in NEW_AS_PATH. Thus, assuming that the closest AS_TRANS is the demarcation cannot give dependable results. (However, Paul is exploring a different problem:) > which is suggested by definition of "leading part" would give us: > > seq(2048,1024,512,200000,256) > > Which is the correct result, however the method is wrong. Imagine if > the 200000 and 256 are the other way around: > > AS_PATH: seq(2048,1024,512,256,AS_TRANS) > NEW_AS_PATH: seq(256,200000) > > Using previous method would give: > > seq(2048,1024,512,256,256,200000) > > Which result is wrong :). Obviously, one should use the n #-of-ASNs > in the *NEW_AS_PATH* as the *trailing* part of the real AS_PATH > information and override the last n ASNs in the AS_PATH. So why > doesn't the draft state this? ;) Paul's algorithm looks safer... But IMHO we'd be poorly advised to blindly adopt it either. Instead, we'd do well to match the trailing n ASNs, substituting 4-octet ASNs for AS_TRANS while the match remains good -- and dropping back to the original AS_PATH if the match fails. (There is a weird case where the matching 4-octet AS _is_ AS_TRANS, which IMHO is _not_ an error.) > I.e. The full process should preferably be *documented* in the draft, > but at a minimum this vague (if not slightly misleading) 'prepend > leading part of AS_PATH' language should be removed. I'd frankly prefer a full algorithm: otherwise we can't put very much confidence in the result. But I'll admit that differing algorithms _might_ not be especially harmful, so long as they preserve the AS_PATH _length_... > Also, if a process to reconcile AS_PATH and NEW_AS_PATH is to be > described (I think it should ;) ), obvious questions arise, as > one responder to the implementation report hints at: > > a) Should/Must the "overriden" ASNs in the AS_PATH be reconciled > against the NEW_AS_PATH ASNs which are replacing them? (I, of course, don't believe the should be "overridden" -- merely disambiguated.) > b) If so, what if they can /not/ be reconciled? We're poorly advised to leave _that_ question "as an exercise to the student". I'm convinced that regardless of what we spec, NEW BGP speakers _will_ receive AS_TRANS entries with no disambiguating NEW_AS_PATH entry. This doesn't seem fatal: the worst effect which jumps out is failure to detect loops (which seems fairly innocuous: detecting loops where none exist would be a much more serious failing). -- John Leslie <john@jlc.net> _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA26531 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:29:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOwlJ-0007T8-N2; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:28:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOwlI-0007SS-5t for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:28:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA05662 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:28:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from qproxy.gmail.com ([72.14.204.198]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EOwvB-0003Os-3I for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:38:26 -0400 Received: by qproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a39so1096126qbd for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 05:27:55 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Scqg1Dz2dHmrqUVbZ4Gpx+n/GGnr4XDnyhoPEt4rFagFmiZaqoZd8I7DfZVx+tTT16k2uu/ne4JvAFxDG44cZ7ljk1MKuiDawQ/wmDfe9kNk2hXSxsD6dNHIQhEPy7AMhAlGdBk6kGVjLVnHxrw8tGWGVsCKX/JQknmqDyQK7eA= Received: by 10.65.123.9 with SMTP id a9mr3237092qbn; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 05:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.147.9 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 05:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8c19328e0510100527l71e68cfdv@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 14:27:54 +0200 From: Ran Liebermann <ranmails@gmail.com> To: idr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-Reply-To: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by nic.merit.edu id IAA26531 On 07/10/05, Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> wrote: > Folks, > > This is to start the WG Last Call on advancing draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt > to a Proposed Standard. The implementation report is > draft-huston-idr-as4bytes-survey-00.txt. A couple of things: 1. Just one cosmetic thing. In my not-fully-English OS I see some funky characters at the end of section 5.2.2 (last paragraph of page 3, 2nd line from the top of the paragraph), between "Autonomous System" and "AS number". 2. There wasn't any mentioning as to the reserved AS numbers (RFC 1930 section 10). I think it should be explicitly mentioned that a NEW BGP speaker peering with an OLD speaker must not insert a reserved AS number to the NEW_AS_PATH attribute. Cheers, -- Ran. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA22391 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOsKd-0005Gn-IJ; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:44:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOsKa-0005GA-QW for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:44:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA22625 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net ([63.240.76.49]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EOsUS-0004O8-8x for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:54:32 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] (c-67-180-169-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[67.180.169.111]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005101007434701400ok6fee>; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:44:07 +0000 In-Reply-To: <4349DB3F.4000903@vijaygill.com> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20051008151613.02e87f40@localhost> <Pine.LNX.4.62.0510091317210.2345@m106.maoz.com> <B29EBF2E-7442-46C7-9E95-00FCC2450293@tony.li> <4349DB3F.4000903@vijaygill.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <8FDA7889-6931-4AC3-B352-DA91D42944E9@tony.li> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:43:45 -0700 To: vijay gill <vgill@vijaygill.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: skh@nexthop.com, Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net>, Tony Tauber <ttauber@1-4-5.net>, idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org >>> Router vendors? Code maintainers? >>> >> Customers? >> > Make it so! > I should have been somewhat less obtuse. In the interests of being crystal clear and perhaps educating a few newcomers and some folks who are otherwise not directly involved in the sales process.... In the last 15 years, the dynamic between network equipment customers and vendors has changed. In Ye Olden Days, we all sat together and then those of us who coded went off and did things and then those of us who ran things tested it and we iterated. And all saw that it was good. Today, since networking has become Big Business, the dynamic has changed drastically. For the most part the customers who attend IETF no longer have the influence over the purchasing decision that they once did. Instead, there are casts of hundreds involved, lengthy RFPs and evaluation processes, and decisions about multiple millions of dollars that are handled at the 'C' level in the organization. Frequently, the technical considerations are the minority factor in the decision making, if they are included at all. Similarly on the vendor side, the engineers who attend IETF no long have a significant say in product content. Feature development is carefully controlled by the vendor's managers, and engineers who contribute features that are not a requested part of the PRD for the next release are gently excused. The upshot of this change in the dynamic is that we all need to understand that the process for getting ideas translated into product has changed. While talking to one another as part of the IETF process is still beneficial, it is no longer sufficient. In fact, it is no longer even an effective mechanism for communicating to the vendor. Instead, the *only* effective channel is via the formal sales process. Even then, the normal account manager or product manager may not be sufficient. You may well need to talk to the specific person who is managing the specific release of the specific operating system for the specific point product on a specific development train. Sadly, they are far less likely to be up to speed on the issue technically or likely to be influenced by "big picture" thinking or doing the "right thing". For them, it is very likely that the sales opportunity connected to the feature is the one and only factor that is a meaningful input. I don't mean to defend this process, just to ensure that everyone understands that this is the reality that we live in today. It is (sadly) unlikely to change: there is too much money involved. The only thing that we can do at this point is to cooperate to influence those above us in our respective organizations, realizing that none of us are empowered to be the decision makers for our respective companies. Forward progress on this issue will take influencing both customer and vendor executives and we should ensure that we do that, but first and foremost we should be responsible for influencing our own organizations. It would be best if we coordinated our efforts, but we should at the very least understand that all involved are somewhat limited in their authority. Newly yours on the customer side of street, Tony _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA18724 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 23:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOo2N-0001Ky-1J; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 23:09:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOo2K-0001Kt-Pt for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 23:09:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA26809 for <idr@ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 23:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from challah.msrl.com ([198.137.194.222]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EOoC9-0006Mz-1E for idr@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 23:19:22 -0400 Received: (qmail 21080 invoked by uid 211); 10 Oct 2005 03:08:51 -0000 Received: from challah.msrl.com (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (vgill@198.137.194.222) by challah.msrl.com with RC4-MD5 encrypted SMTP; 10 Oct 2005 03:08:51 -0000 Message-ID: <4349DB3F.4000903@vijaygill.com> Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 23:08:47 -0400 From: vijay gill <vgill@vijaygill.com> Organization: vgill global logistics User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4.1 (Windows/20051006) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20051008151613.02e87f40@localhost> <Pine.LNX.4.62.0510091317210.2345@m106.maoz.com> <B29EBF2E-7442-46C7-9E95-00FCC2450293@tony.li> In-Reply-To: <B29EBF2E-7442-46C7-9E95-00FCC2450293@tony.li> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: skh@nexthop.com, Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net>, Tony Tauber <ttauber@1-4-5.net>, idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Tony Li wrote: > >> Router vendors? Code maintainers? > > > Customers? > > Tony Make it so! Though I'm sure I missed where we couldn't make it 128 bytes and call it done. /vijay _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA17522 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOmFT-0003mX-TH; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:14:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOmFS-0003mN-DK for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:14:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA22478 for <idr@ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:14:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hibernia.jakma.org ([212.17.55.49] ident=[U2FsdGVkX1+eFAgP+qMRWs+WfMj5ObqEeiXyD4xDZQU=]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EOmPF-0003vc-OR for idr@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 21:24:46 -0400 Received: from sheen.jakma.org (sheen.jakma.org [212.17.55.53]) by hibernia.jakma.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j9A1E2qX021773; Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:14:06 +0100 Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:15:06 +0100 (IST) From: Paul Jakma <paul@clubi.ie> X-X-Sender: paul@sheen.jakma.org To: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-Reply-To: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510100013110.3396@sheen.jakma.org> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> Mail-Copies-To: paul@hibernia.jakma.org X-NSA: al aqsar jihad musharef jet-A1 avgas ammonium qran inshallah allah al-akbar martyr iraq saddam hammas hisballah rabin ayatollah korea vietnam revolt mustard gas british airways washington peroxide cool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.87, clamav-milter version 0.87 on hibernia.jakma.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a8a20a483a84f747e56475e290ee868e Cc: skh@nexthop.com, idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Yakov Rekhter wrote: > Folks, > > This is to start the WG Last Call on advancing > draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt to a Proposed Standard. The > implementation report is draft-huston-idr-as4bytes-survey-00.txt. 1. Surely the questions raised in the implementation report should first be at least examined, if not addressed? (concerns 5.2.3 at least, see 3.). 2. Section 5.3 should be deleted, I'm not sure how this draft could ever mandate behaviour for OLD speakers, when OLD specifically is defined to be those peers which do not implemented the extensions defined in the draft. ;) 3. NEW_AS_PATH parsing/actions are barely specified. Eg: NEW NEW NEW OLD OLD NEW AS256---AS200000---AS512---AS1024---AS2048---AS4096 According to 5.2.2, AS512 should create an AS_PATH attribute for AS1024 that preserves the path-length by representing each 4-byte ASN with AS_TRANS, and should construct NEW_AS_PATH as per AS_PATH (the AS_PATH as received previously presumably). So AS1024 would receive: AS_PATH: seq(512,AS_TRANS,256) NEW_AS_PATH: seq(200000,256) AS4096 would receive: AS_PATH: seq(2048,1024,512,AS_TRANS,256) NEW_AS_PATH: seq(200000,256) 5.2.3 states that: "<leading part of AS_PATH information> should be prepended to the NEW_AS_PATH attribute to construct the exact AS path information." Where "leading part" are those ASN that are only 2-byte and OLD. But we're not told how one should deduce where this leading part finishes. The simplistic approach of "closest AS_TRANS marks end of leading part", which is suggested by definition of "leading part" would give us: seq(2048,1024,512,200000,256) Which is the correct result, however the method is wrong. Imagine if the 200000 and 256 are the other way around: AS_PATH: seq(2048,1024,512,256,AS_TRANS) NEW_AS_PATH: seq(256,200000) Using previous method would give: seq(2048,1024,512,256,256,200000) Which result is wrong :). Obviously, one should use the n #-of-ASNs in the *NEW_AS_PATH* as the *trailing* part of the real AS_PATH information and override the last n ASNs in the AS_PATH. So why doesn't the draft state this? ;) I.e. The full process should preferably be *documented* in the draft, but at a minimum this vague (if not slightly misleading) 'prepend leading part of AS_PATH' language should be removed. Also, if a process to reconcile AS_PATH and NEW_AS_PATH is to be described (I think it should ;) ), obvious questions arise, as one responder to the implementation report hints at: a) Should/Must the "overriden" ASNs in the AS_PATH be reconciled against the NEW_AS_PATH ASNs which are replacing them? b) If so, what if they can /not/ be reconciled? 4. Some mention, surely, could be made of the issues protocol decoders will face, and of the ASN allocation strategy which could help remove this issue? (It has a cost of one additional reserved 2-byte ASN). 5. 5.2.3 contains the following statement: "<the NEW_AS_PATH> attribute may not have been updated since the route left the last NEW BGP speaker." Which raises the question of how exactly any speaker besides a NEW (or NEW-compatible) speaker would modify NEW_AS_PATH? Indeed, NEW_AS_PATH can /not/ propogate across NEW speakers. The last speaker to have "modified" NEW_AS_PATH is, by the language of the draft, the NEW speaker which formed it which must therefore be the last NEW speaker. So the "may not" should read "will not" instead. > Yakov. regards, -- Paul Jakma paul@clubi.ie paul@jakma.org Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Thank goodness modern convenience is a thing of the remote future. -- Pogo, by Walt Kelly _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA14815 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:51:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOi6U-0002UU-0V; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:49:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOi6S-0002UJ-Md for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:49:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09680 for <idr@ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rwcrmhc14.comcast.net ([216.148.227.89] helo=rwcrmhc12.comcast.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EOiGD-0006Cm-D7 for idr@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:59:10 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] (c-67-180-169-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net[67.180.169.111]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005100920482401400939i5e>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 20:48:39 +0000 In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0510091317210.2345@m106.maoz.com> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20051008151613.02e87f40@localhost> <Pine.LNX.4.62.0510091317210.2345@m106.maoz.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <B29EBF2E-7442-46C7-9E95-00FCC2450293@tony.li> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:48:21 -0700 To: Tony Tauber <ttauber@1-4-5.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: skh@nexthop.com, Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net>, idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org > Router vendors? Code maintainers? Customers? Tony _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA14534 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOhkU-0007UQ-Rj; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:26:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EOhkT-0007UL-A4 for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:26:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA07660 for <idr@ietf.org>; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m106.maoz.com ([205.167.76.9]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EOhuC-0005RW-Ms for idr@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2005 16:36:27 -0400 Received: from m106.maoz.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by m106.maoz.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j99KPjeZ002759; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:25:45 -0700 Received: from localhost (ttauber@localhost) by m106.maoz.com (8.13.4/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id j99KPgfs002756; Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:25:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: m106.maoz.com: ttauber owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 13:25:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Tony Tauber <ttauber@1-4-5.net> X-X-Sender: ttauber@m106.maoz.com To: Geoff Huston <gih@apnic.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20051008151613.02e87f40@localhost> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0510091317210.2345@m106.maoz.com> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> <6.2.0.14.2.20051008151613.02e87f40@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: skh@nexthop.com, Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net>, idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Geoff Huston wrote: > I am happy to see this draft advance. > > Geoff Me as well. Would be nice if the implementation list were a tad longer... Router vendors? Code maintainers? Tony > At 02:41 AM 8/10/2005, Yakov Rekhter wrote: >> Folks, >> >> This is to start the WG Last Call on advancing >> draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt >> to a Proposed Standard. The implementation report is >> draft-huston-idr-as4bytes-survey-00.txt. >> _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA20525 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 01:21:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EO761-0005Vv-9S; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 01:18:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EO75x-0005Vf-5h for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 01:18:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA18199 for <idr@ietf.org>; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 01:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net ([203.50.0.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EO7FJ-0003dr-16 for idr@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Oct 2005 01:27:47 -0400 Received: from gihm3.apnic.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j985GvXt007079; Sat, 8 Oct 2005 15:17:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@apnic.net) Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20051008151613.02e87f40@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 15:16:42 +1000 To: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net>, idr@ietf.org From: Geoff Huston <gih@apnic.net> Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt In-Reply-To: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> References: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: skh@nexthop.com X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org I am happy to see this draft advance. Geoff At 02:41 AM 8/10/2005, Yakov Rekhter wrote: >Folks, > >This is to start the WG Last Call on advancing draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt >to a Proposed Standard. The implementation report is >draft-huston-idr-as4bytes-survey-00.txt. > >The Last Call ends Oct 21, 2005. > >Yakov. > >_______________________________________________ >Idr mailing list >Idr@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA13090 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENvIK-0000zG-Ak; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:42:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENvII-0000zB-Kq for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:42:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA29341 for <idr@ietf.org>; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colo-dns-ext1.juniper.net ([207.17.137.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ENvRb-0006ic-W7 for idr@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2005 12:51:41 -0400 Received: from merlot.juniper.net (merlot.juniper.net [172.17.27.10]) by colo-dns-ext1.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id j97Gfp975902; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:41:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Received: from juniper.net (sapphire.juniper.net [172.17.28.108]) by merlot.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j97GfgG21459; Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:41:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Message-Id: <200510071641.j97GfgG21459@merlot.juniper.net> To: idr@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <76720.1128703301.1@juniper.net> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 09:41:41 -0700 From: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: skh@nexthop.com Subject: [Idr] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Folks, This is to start the WG Last Call on advancing draft-ietf-idr-as4bytes-11.txt to a Proposed Standard. The implementation report is draft-huston-idr-as4bytes-survey-00.txt. The Last Call ends Oct 21, 2005. Yakov. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA09380 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 17:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENFdS-0001Vv-Tc; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 16:13:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ENFHC-00053x-8t; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 15:50:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13773; Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [132.151.6.50] (helo=newodin.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ENFQ5-00063X-Uc; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 15:59:19 -0400 Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1ENFH8-0008WS-Ej; Wed, 05 Oct 2005 15:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <E1ENFH8-0008WS-Ej@newodin.ietf.org> Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 15:50:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b5d20af10c334b36874c0264b10f59f1 Cc: idr@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-rfc3065bis-05.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing Working Group of the IETF. Title : Autonomous System Confederations for BGP Author(s) : P. Traina, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-idr-rfc3065bis-05.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2005-10-5 The Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) is an inter-autonomous system routing protocol designed for Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol (TCP/IP) networks. BGP requires that all BGP speakers within a single autonomous system (AS) must be fully meshed. This represents a serious scaling problem that has been well documented in a number of proposals. This document describes an extension to BGP which may be used to create a confederation of autonomous systems that is represented as a single autonomous system to BGP peers external to the confederation, thereby removing the "full mesh" requirement. The intention of this extension is to aid in policy administration and reduce the management complexity of maintaining a large autonomous system. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-rfc3065bis-05.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-idr-rfc3065bis-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-rfc3065bis-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-10-5140946.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-rfc3065bis-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-idr-rfc3065bis-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-10-5140946.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --NextPart-- Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA08701 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMp2j-0000SI-2E; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 11:49:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMp2h-0000SA-Ee for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 11:49:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04464 for <idr@ietf.org>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:49:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from division.aa.arbor.net ([204.181.64.2] helo=gott.aa.arbor.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EMpBO-00076C-4Z for idr@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 11:58:23 -0400 Received: from [192.168.51.86] (unknown [10.0.6.127]) by gott.aa.arbor.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481A514AEC for <idr@ietf.org>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2D27764C-3833-48DD-8501-F0C87DB0F97F@tcb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: idr@ietf.org From: Danny McPherson <danny@tcb.net> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 09:49:02 -0600 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Idr] RFC3065bis Implementation Survey X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Folks, If you've implemented AS Confederations for BGP could you please complete the following questionnaire and get your responses back to me ASAP? Note that I plan to update the -04 version of BGP Confederations ID (to keep it's expiry from triggering) but no technical changes are planned. Thanks in advance! -danny ================== AS Confederations for BGP Implementation Survey http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-rfc3065bis-04.txt Contact and implementation Information or person filling out this form: Does your implementation follow the procedures outlined in the Operation Section of [RFC3065bis]? Does your implementation recognize the two AS_CONFED Segment Types (AS_CONFED_SET and AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE) defined in [RFC3065bis] Does your implementation use it's Member-AS number in all transactions with peers that are members of the same BGP confederation as the local speaker? Does your implementation treat receipt of an AS_PATH attribute containing an autonomous system matching its own AS Confederation Identifier in the same fashion as if it had received a path containing its own AS number? Does your implementation treat receipt of an AS_PATH attribute containing an AS_CONFED_SEQUENCE or AS_CONFED_SET which contains its own Member-AS Number in the same fashion as if it had received a path containing its own AS number? Does your implementation follow the AS_PATH Modification Rules outlined in [RFC3065bis]? Does your implementation follow the Error Handling procedures outlined in [RFC3065bis]? Does your implementation follow the Path Selection guidelines outlined in [RFC3065bis]? List other implementations that you have tested for Autonomous System Confederations for BGP [RFC3065bis]: _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA08163 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:19:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMo7b-00072F-FX; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:50:23 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMo7H-0006vT-7Q; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:50:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA24563; Tue, 4 Oct 2005 10:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [132.151.6.50] (helo=newodin.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EMoFy-0003Aj-4H; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:59:02 -0400 Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EMo7F-0007kP-VL; Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:50:01 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: <E1EMo7F-0007kP-VL@newodin.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:50:01 -0400 X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f66b12316365a3fe519e75911daf28a8 Cc: idr@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-idr-bgp-multisession-01.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing Working Group of the IETF. Title : Multisession BGP Author(s) : J. Scudder, C. Appanna Filename : draft-ietf-idr-bgp-multisession-01.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2005-10-4 This specification augments "Multiprotocol Extensions for BGP-4" [MP- BGP] by proposing a mechanism to allow multiple sessions to be used between a given pair of BGP speakers. Each session is used to transport routes for one or more AFI/SAFI. This provides an alternative to the current [MP-BGP] approach of multiplexing routes for all AFI/SAFI onto a single connection. Use of this approach is expected to increase the robustness of the BGP protocol as it is used to support more and more diverse AFI/SAFI. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-multisession-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-idr-bgp-multisession-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-multisession-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-10-4103924.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-multisession-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-idr-bgp-multisession-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-10-4103924.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --NextPart-- Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16268 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMUnF-00049r-0D; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:12:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMUnC-00049a-RP for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:12:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22166 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.spawar.navy.mil ([128.49.4.2]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EMUvf-0007zI-44 for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:20:49 -0400 Received: from pescado.nosc.mil (pescado.nosc.mil [128.49.4.90]) by smtp1.spawar.navy.mil (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j93IBgf9027529 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:11:42 -0700 Received: from [128.49.25.21] (nomad.spawar.navy.mil [128.49.25.21]) by pescado.nosc.mil (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id INSQJI00.L0G for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:11:42 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <200510031614.j93GE64D064355@workhorse.faster-light.net> References: <200510031614.j93GE64D064355@workhorse.faster-light.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9C8ACD45-DBDB-491D-A4C6-F29E4D88DF94@spawar.navy.mil> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Dow M. Street" <streetd@spawar.navy.mil> Subject: Re: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:11:40 -0700 To: idr@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-SPAWAR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-SPAWAR-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (score=-2.776, required 5, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -2.82, AWL 0.04) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2086112c730e13d5955355df27e3074b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org If still looking for a "book", you may find Network Algorithmics (ISBN: 0-12-088477-1) useful in general concepts, if not BGP specifics.. On Oct 3, 2005, at 9:14 AM, Curtis Villamizar wrote: > > In message <4769af410510030116v36eedc38i@mail.gmail.com> > Adam Greenhalgh writes: > >> >> Perhaps you might like to take a look at the XORP modular router's >> bgp >> code, http://www.xorp.org , some details about the implementation are >> here : >> http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/M.Handley/papers/xorp-nsdi.pdf >> >> Adam >> > > > Adam, > > Thanks for the pointer. That paper is certainly a good start. I'm > more familiar with the Gated implementation. I don't know if there > was an archive of e-mail among the gated developers while the Gated > Consortium was still at Cornell but that is when the original gated > BGP-4 implementation was written (mostly by Dennis Furgusson) and when > the most open discussion of BGP scaling considerations was going on > (at least that I know of). Gated documentation from the old public > releases might help. > > Curtis > > > >> On 03/10/05, Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> wrote: >> >>> >>> In message <BAY17-F38771A3430A54ADB02D61A6800@phx.gbl> >>> "john smith" writes: >>> >>>> >>>> The RFC seems fine, >>>> >>>> perhaps something like "BGP is based on the Bellman-Ford >>>> algorithm" etc. >>>> would be a nice line to add.... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: Jing Shen <jshen_cad@yahoo.com.cn> >>>>> To: idr@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP >>>>> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:57:13 +0800 (CST) >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I'm sorry if this is off-topic. >>>>> >>>>> Would anybody recommend some book on BGP? Someone >>>>> recommend Halabi's book, but it seems focusing on >>>>> operational area. Is there any book discussing how BGP >>>>> is designed and implemented? >>>>> >>>>> thanks >>>>> >>>>> Joe shen >>>>> >>> >>> >>> John, >>> >>> The question seemed to be more focused on how to design and code >>> a BGP >>> implementation, presumably one that will not fail when deployed in a >>> real network. I sent Mr. Shen a private message indicating that >>> there >>> was no really good book on BGP implementation. The lessons learned >>> about BGP's behaviour in real networds and the implications for data >>> structures and algorithms used to implement BGP is not to my >>> knowledge >>> available in any textbook. >>> >>> There are plenty of anecdotal examples in IETF and NANOG archives of >>> things that weren't done right the first time in some >>> implementations. >>> Even basic things like making writes non-blocking and properly >>> handling non-blocking writes have been missed by some >>> implementations. >>> One prominent implementation at one time had a linked list of per >>> prefix policy statements despite the known poor search time for a >>> linked list. An example of a misfeature is one vendors ill >>> conceived >>> "optimization" of sending route deletes to all peers even if no >>> route >>> announcement had been sent to a subset of those peers. All of these >>> problems are corrected in today's major implementations. >>> >>> Though not in any textbook, apparently this stuff is far enough from >>> obvious that it wouldn't hurt to be in one. The reason it isn't may >>> be that the audience for such a book is too small or there is a lack >>> of people with the capabilty and time to write it. >>> >>> That sort of thing doesn't belong in the RFC and mentioning >>> Bellman-Ford doesn't come anywhere close to covering the topic. >>> >>> Curtis >>> >>> ps - History also has plenty of at one time deployed "how not to >>> design a router" problems that are not specific to BGP. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Idr mailing list >>> Idr@ietf.org >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA14326 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMT00-0000W3-50; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:17:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMSzx-0000Vb-CP for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:17:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA15598 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:17:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay03.pair.com ([209.68.5.17]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EMT8S-0004Yc-Q2 for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:25:53 -0400 Received: (qmail 39629 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2005 16:16:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO workhorse.faster-light.net) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 3 Oct 2005 16:16:53 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 69.37.59.162 Received: from workhorse.faster-light.net (localhost.faster-light.net [127.0.0.1]) by workhorse.faster-light.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j93GE64D064355; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:14:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@workhorse.faster-light.net) Message-Id: <200510031614.j93GE64D064355@workhorse.faster-light.net> To: Adam Greenhalgh <a.greenhalgh@cs.ucl.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:16:41 BST." <4769af410510030116v36eedc38i@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:14:06 -0400 From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@faster-light.net List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org In message <4769af410510030116v36eedc38i@mail.gmail.com> Adam Greenhalgh writes: > > Perhaps you might like to take a look at the XORP modular router's bgp > code, http://www.xorp.org , some details about the implementation are > here : > http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/M.Handley/papers/xorp-nsdi.pdf > > Adam Adam, Thanks for the pointer. That paper is certainly a good start. I'm more familiar with the Gated implementation. I don't know if there was an archive of e-mail among the gated developers while the Gated Consortium was still at Cornell but that is when the original gated BGP-4 implementation was written (mostly by Dennis Furgusson) and when the most open discussion of BGP scaling considerations was going on (at least that I know of). Gated documentation from the old public releases might help. Curtis > On 03/10/05, Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> wrote: > > > > In message <BAY17-F38771A3430A54ADB02D61A6800@phx.gbl> > > "john smith" writes: > > > > > > The RFC seems fine, > > > > > > perhaps something like "BGP is based on the Bellman-Ford algorithm" etc. > > > would be a nice line to add.... > > > > > > > > > >From: Jing Shen <jshen_cad@yahoo.com.cn> > > > >To: idr@ietf.org > > > >Subject: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP > > > >Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:57:13 +0800 (CST) > > > > > > > >Hi, > > > > > > > >I'm sorry if this is off-topic. > > > > > > > >Would anybody recommend some book on BGP? Someone > > > >recommend Halabi's book, but it seems focusing on > > > >operational area. Is there any book discussing how BGP > > > >is designed and implemented? > > > > > > > >thanks > > > > > > > >Joe shen > > > > > > John, > > > > The question seemed to be more focused on how to design and code a BGP > > implementation, presumably one that will not fail when deployed in a > > real network. I sent Mr. Shen a private message indicating that there > > was no really good book on BGP implementation. The lessons learned > > about BGP's behaviour in real networds and the implications for data > > structures and algorithms used to implement BGP is not to my knowledge > > available in any textbook. > > > > There are plenty of anecdotal examples in IETF and NANOG archives of > > things that weren't done right the first time in some implementations. > > Even basic things like making writes non-blocking and properly > > handling non-blocking writes have been missed by some implementations. > > One prominent implementation at one time had a linked list of per > > prefix policy statements despite the known poor search time for a > > linked list. An example of a misfeature is one vendors ill conceived > > "optimization" of sending route deletes to all peers even if no route > > announcement had been sent to a subset of those peers. All of these > > problems are corrected in today's major implementations. > > > > Though not in any textbook, apparently this stuff is far enough from > > obvious that it wouldn't hurt to be in one. The reason it isn't may > > be that the audience for such a book is too small or there is a lack > > of people with the capabilty and time to write it. > > > > That sort of thing doesn't belong in the RFC and mentioning > > Bellman-Ford doesn't come anywhere close to covering the topic. > > > > Curtis > > > > ps - History also has plenty of at one time deployed "how not to > > design a router" problems that are not specific to BGP. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Idr mailing list > > Idr@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA03339 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMJ50-0004ft-UH; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 01:41:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMJ4y-0004c2-Na for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 01:41:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA20131 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:41:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bay17-f18.bay17.hotmail.com ([64.4.43.68] helo=hotmail.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EMJD9-0003ay-CJ for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 01:50:11 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 22:41:11 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY17-F18A0C2C0F3E84191EF83D4A6800@phx.gbl> Received: from 80.15.249.148 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 05:41:11 GMT X-Originating-IP: [202.144.106.188] X-Originating-Email: [johnsmith0302@hotmail.com] X-Sender: johnsmith0302@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <200510030504.j9354g0m058523@workhorse.faster-light.net> From: "john smith" <johnsmith0302@hotmail.com> To: idr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 05:41:11 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2005 05:41:11.0709 (UTC) FILETIME=[0FD2A4D0:01C5C7DD] X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org >Though not in any textbook, apparently this stuff is far enough from >obvious that it wouldn't hurt to be in one. The reason it isn't may >be that the audience for such a book is too small or there is a lack >of people with the capabilty and time to write it. > >That sort of thing doesn't belong in the RFC and mentioning >Bellman-Ford doesn't come anywhere close to covering the topic. > >Curtis > >ps - History also has plenty of at one time deployed "how not to >design a router" problems that are not specific to BGP. Then there is no harm in writing code like this is there? for(;P("\n"),R--;P("|"))for(e=C;e--;P("_"+(*u++/8)%2))P("|"+(*u/4) %2); as stated here: http://www.gdargaud.net/Humor/C_Prog_Debug.html _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA02756 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMIY7-0007jD-CH; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 01:07:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMIY2-0007i8-Du for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 01:07:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA19038 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay03.pair.com ([209.68.5.17]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EMIgR-0002yK-3f for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 01:16:16 -0400 Received: (qmail 7240 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2005 05:07:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO workhorse.faster-light.net) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 3 Oct 2005 05:07:22 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 69.37.59.162 Received: from workhorse.faster-light.net (localhost.faster-light.net [127.0.0.1]) by workhorse.faster-light.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9354g0m058523; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 01:04:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from curtis@workhorse.faster-light.net) Message-Id: <200510030504.j9354g0m058523@workhorse.faster-light.net> To: "john smith" <johnsmith0302@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Oct 2005 04:04:19 -0000." <BAY17-F38771A3430A54ADB02D61A6800@phx.gbl> Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 01:04:42 -0400 From: Curtis Villamizar <curtis@faster-light.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Cc: idr@ietf.org X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: curtis@faster-light.net List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org In message <BAY17-F38771A3430A54ADB02D61A6800@phx.gbl> "john smith" writes: > > The RFC seems fine, > > perhaps something like "BGP is based on the Bellman-Ford algorithm" etc. > would be a nice line to add.... > > > >From: Jing Shen <jshen_cad@yahoo.com.cn> > >To: idr@ietf.org > >Subject: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP > >Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:57:13 +0800 (CST) > > > >Hi, > > > >I'm sorry if this is off-topic. > > > >Would anybody recommend some book on BGP? Someone > >recommend Halabi's book, but it seems focusing on > >operational area. Is there any book discussing how BGP > >is designed and implemented? > > > >thanks > > > >Joe shen John, The question seemed to be more focused on how to design and code a BGP implementation, presumably one that will not fail when deployed in a real network. I sent Mr. Shen a private message indicating that there was no really good book on BGP implementation. The lessons learned about BGP's behaviour in real networds and the implications for data structures and algorithms used to implement BGP is not to my knowledge available in any textbook. There are plenty of anecdotal examples in IETF and NANOG archives of things that weren't done right the first time in some implementations. Even basic things like making writes non-blocking and properly handling non-blocking writes have been missed by some implementations. One prominent implementation at one time had a linked list of per prefix policy statements despite the known poor search time for a linked list. An example of a misfeature is one vendors ill conceived "optimization" of sending route deletes to all peers even if no route announcement had been sent to a subset of those peers. All of these problems are corrected in today's major implementations. Though not in any textbook, apparently this stuff is far enough from obvious that it wouldn't hurt to be in one. The reason it isn't may be that the audience for such a book is too small or there is a lack of people with the capabilty and time to write it. That sort of thing doesn't belong in the RFC and mentioning Bellman-Ford doesn't come anywhere close to covering the topic. Curtis ps - History also has plenty of at one time deployed "how not to design a router" problems that are not specific to BGP. _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA01972 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMHuL-0007aR-HT; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:26:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMHuK-0007YU-6P for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:26:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA17162 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bay17-f8.bay17.hotmail.com ([64.4.43.58] helo=hotmail.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EMI2i-00021k-G5 for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:35:13 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:26:21 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY17-F86CDD6251A0D0978486ACA6800@phx.gbl> Received: from 80.15.249.149 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 04:26:20 GMT X-Originating-IP: [202.144.106.188] X-Originating-Email: [johnsmith0302@hotmail.com] X-Sender: johnsmith0302@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <4340B0ED.8030200@motorola.com> From: "john smith" <johnsmith0302@hotmail.com> To: idr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 04:26:20 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2005 04:26:21.0375 (UTC) FILETIME=[9B600CF0:01C5C7D2] X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Yes but it is always nice to know the original source/problem statement. >From: Reji Varghese <Reji.Varghese@motorola.com> >To: john smith <johnsmith0302@hotmail.com> >CC: idr@ietf.org, jshen_cad@yahoo.com.cn >Subject: Re: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP >Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:47:49 +0530 > >Christian Huitema's 'Routing in the Internet' is a good source, >though not very elaborate. > >Another one is 'BGP4 Inter-Domain Routing in the Internet' >by John W. Stewart > >Regards >Reji Varghese > >john smith wrote: > >>The RFC seems fine, >> >>perhaps something like "BGP is based on the Bellman-Ford algorithm" etc. >>would be a nice line to add.... >> >> >>>From: Jing Shen <jshen_cad@yahoo.com.cn> >>>To: idr@ietf.org >>>Subject: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP >>>Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:57:13 +0800 (CST) >>> >>>Hi, >>> >>>I'm sorry if this is off-topic. >>> >>>Would anybody recommend some book on BGP? Someone >>>recommend Halabi's book, but it seems focusing on >>>operational area. Is there any book discussing how BGP >>>is designed and implemented? >>> >>>thanks >>> >>>Joe shen >>> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! >>http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Idr mailing list >>Idr@ietf.org >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >> > >-- >Reji Varghese >Phone: +91-80-2601 4096 >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >[ ] General Business Information >[x] Motorola Internal Use only >[ ] Motorola Confidential Proprietary > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA01624 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMHZ9-00068r-T2; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:04:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EMHZ7-00068I-Kj for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:04:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA16353 for <idr@ietf.org>; Mon, 3 Oct 2005 00:04:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bay17-f3.bay17.hotmail.com ([64.4.43.53] helo=hotmail.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EMHhQ-0001Zi-O1 for idr@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:13:19 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:04:20 -0700 Message-ID: <BAY17-F38771A3430A54ADB02D61A6800@phx.gbl> Received: from 80.15.249.149 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 03 Oct 2005 04:04:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [202.144.106.188] X-Originating-Email: [johnsmith0302@hotmail.com] X-Sender: johnsmith0302@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <20050930085714.69041.qmail@web15408.mail.cnb.yahoo.com> From: "john smith" <johnsmith0302@hotmail.com> To: idr@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 04:04:19 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2005 04:04:20.0013 (UTC) FILETIME=[87C835D0:01C5C7CF] X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org The RFC seems fine, perhaps something like "BGP is based on the Bellman-Ford algorithm" etc. would be a nice line to add.... >From: Jing Shen <jshen_cad@yahoo.com.cn> >To: idr@ietf.org >Subject: [Idr] Recommend Book on BGP >Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:57:13 +0800 (CST) > >Hi, > >I'm sorry if this is off-topic. > >Would anybody recommend some book on BGP? Someone >recommend Halabi's book, but it seems focusing on >operational area. Is there any book discussing how BGP >is designed and implemented? > >thanks > >Joe shen > _________________________________________________________________ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by nic.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16750 for <idr-archive@nic.merit.edu>; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 09:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EM47L-0001Vf-R4; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:43:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EM47K-0001VV-1x for idr@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:43:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA15590 for <idr@ietf.org>; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 09:43:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from colo-dns-ext2.juniper.net ([207.17.137.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EM4Fa-0001DT-Ja for idr@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 09:51:35 -0400 Received: from merlot.juniper.net (merlot.juniper.net [172.17.27.10]) by colo-dns-ext2.juniper.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id j92DgpBm089681; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 06:42:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Received: from juniper.net (sapphire.juniper.net [172.17.28.108]) by merlot.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id j92DgpG37661; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 06:42:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yakov@juniper.net) Message-Id: <200510021342.j92DgpG37661@merlot.juniper.net> To: idr@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] IDR WG agenda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <22552.1128260571.1@juniper.net> Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 06:42:51 -0700 From: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: skh@nexthop.com X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/idr> List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: idr-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: idr-bounces@ietf.org Folks, Its about time to start thinking about agenda items for the next IETF. Please forward any IDR agenda items you might have to me and Sue. And if you plan to make a presentation, please also keep in mind the rule "no document - no time slot". 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- [Idr] slides for presentations Yakov Rekhter
- [Idr] slides for presentations Yakov Rekhter