Re: [Idr] Working group adoption call for draft-snijders-idr-deprecate-30-31-129

"John G. Scudder" <jgs@juniper.net> Tue, 01 November 2016 18:20 UTC

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Cc: IETF IDR Working Group <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Working group adoption call for draft-snijders-idr-deprecate-30-31-129
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Tom,

I'm confused by your message. 

It appears to relate to the proposed adoption of draft-snijders-idr-deprecate-30-31-129 and not to my most recent message regarding IANA process at all, even though you followed up to, and quoted, mine. I'll proceed on that assumption.

I agree that it's unfortunate there is apparently no referenceable definition of "deprecate" but on the other hand, this has not impeded many code points from being deprecated in the past. Somehow we have muddled through. I suppose it wouldn't be the end of the world to do as you suggest and normatively reference 5226bis even if it means sitting in downref indefinitely, because I think IANA will be willing to mark the code points deprecated on the strength of the internet draft, following the early (de!) allocation process. But also think it would be fine to follow the other branch of your suggestion and quote their definition, removing the downref.

Apart from the question of providing a reference/definition for what "deprecate" means (which I thought we'd already settled), the rest seems to be editorial minutiae. 

None of these things (request for a definition, other editorial issues) seems to me to be a basis for "Oppose". The question before the WG is really "do we want to deprecate these code points", and that's what I'd most like to see people engage with in deciding to adopt (or not) the document. 

To be clear, for purposes of this adoption call, I'm assuming we are using the 5226bis Section 9.6 definition (or "definition") you refer to, viz.:

   Specific entries in a registry can be marked as "obsolete" (no longer
   in use) or "deprecated" (use is not recommended).

If someone who has already responded did so on the basis of thinking that "deprecated" means something other than "use is not recommended" they may of course revise their position.

Regards,

--John
 
> On Nov 1, 2016, at 1:44 PM, t.petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:
> 
> Oppose
> 
> We all know what deprecate means which, based on recent discussions of
> other topics on this list, means we are using many divergent
> ones in our assessment of this I-D.
> 
> 'deprecate' is a technical term in the processes of the IETF.  You need
> to define it, or better, use the existing definition.
> 
> That definition is in
> draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-18
> which therefore MUST/SHALL be/is REQUIRED to be a Normative Reference,
> and yes, that means waiting for that to become an RFC before this can
> advance; which interaction I see as a necessity.
> 
> Otherwise, we haven't a clue what we are adopting.  Well we have, but it
> is about a dozen different clues.
> 
> Likewise, but not so critical at this stage, having an RFC that starts
> ' This document requests IANA   ..'
> will look, well, not very sensible.  If you believe in what you are
> doing, then I would like you to state it as a fact.
> 'This memo changes the status of ... in the IANA Registry to
> 'deprecated'
> 
> And what you have at present sits oddly with the IANA Considerations.
> Usually, the latter says
> 'IANA is asked to ...'
> which is edited by the RFC Editor
> 'IANA has ...'
> 
> Yet you have an IANA Considerations of
> 'IANA has  ...
> Back to front, IMHO.
> 
> Tom Petch
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Scudder" <jgs@juniper.net>
> To: "Jeffrey Haas" <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> Cc: "IETF IDR Working Group" <idr@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 4:20 PM
> 
> 
>> On Nov 1, 2016, at 10:53 AM, John G. Scudder <jgs@juniper.net> wrote:
>>> On Nov 1, 2016, at 10:40 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
>>>> 1. Do we actually need a draft published to request IANA to block
> out
>>>> allocation of these code points?  If so, we're going to end up with
> a number
>>>> of trivial drafts for these corrective actions.  I'm interested in
> hearing
>>>> the IESG's opinion on this point.
>>> 
>>> IANA did specifically request an RFC to reference although they
> stopped short of explicitly saying "if you don't promise to give us a
> document, we won't do this action". I have asked them to clarify and
> will report back, but I suggest that for now the WG should assume that
> we do actually need to publish draft and progress it to RFC.
>> 
>> Update: Michelle @ IANA confirms that they do require RFC for
> deprecation from a Standards Action registry but agrees there is no
> documentation of this requirement specific to deprecation, they've just
> inferred it from the requirement to assign one. She says she'll bring it
> up on the Thursday IESG telechat.
>> 
>> Again, for now the WG should assume we do need an RFC.
>> 
>> --John
>> _______________________________________________
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