Re: [Idr] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-idr-rfc8203bis-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

"Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com> Thu, 08 October 2020 00:59 UTC

Return-Path: <jheitz@cisco.com>
X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13DE3A03F1; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 17:59:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -9.601
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=ltlVf+6O; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=vsAovYVT
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xw_15JH5zLsu; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 17:59:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B43E3A03EE; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 17:59:49 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4508; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1602118790; x=1603328390; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=To19pxzoKABHEdCjwgkI6/BEjClcgXGkDVM3t+axPZc=; b=ltlVf+6OLdvB4Mb6au7q7zDLZGsI12S2UwHVAsZNJUfuQmRNeSZZamGw Fx8sFVpNVrpUdAlPhlg5mpRva+jXJbAFKclBAWCJgnchLA/+XxWOajdJa GPaImyJP0aU2hML1HBIHGELi5/f2CkcfarqzoxY387gk0i2Ep3fkbW/hJ U=;
IronPort-PHdr: 9a23:haognhCznKRgeYc8WBI6UyQJPHJ1sqjoPgMT9pssgq5PdaLm5Zn5IUjD/qw00g3CWoLD5uhbzevQ4OjsWm0FtJCGtn1KMJlBTAQMhshemQs8SNWEBkv2IL+PDWQ6Ec1OWUUj8yS9Nk5YS835YEXfuGL07DhBUhn6PBB+c+LyHIOahs+r1ue0rpvUZQgAhDe0bb5oahusqgCEvcgNiowkIaE0mRY=
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0B1AACpY35f/4gNJK1gHAEBAQEBAQcBARIBAQQEAQFAgTwGAQELAYFRUQdwWS8shD2DRgONdYECiQ+OaoEuFIERA1ULAQEBDQEBIwoCBAEBhEoCF4FwAiU1CA4CAwEBCwEBBQEBAQIBBgRthVwMhXIBAQEBAxIREQwBATcBCwQCAQgRBAEBAwImAgICHxEVCAgCBAENBQgagwWCSwMuAQ6ddQKBOYhhdoEygwEBAQWBR0GDKg0LghADBoEOKgGCcYNrgkSEEhuBQT+BEUOCGDU+ghpCAgECAYEdCQESAQgbgxUzgi2PfSQygjMBPKNHUgqCaIkAjFwEhSmDE4oEhT+OV5MainCCa5JAAgQCBAUCDgEBBYFWATdnWBEHcBWBFYIPUBcCDYh3hSg3gzqFFIVCdAI1AgYBCQEBAwl8jUwBAQ
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.77,348,1596499200"; d="scan'208";a="591612660"
Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 08 Oct 2020 00:59:49 +0000
Received: from XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (xch-aln-001.cisco.com [173.36.7.11]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 0980xmSY022993 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Oct 2020 00:59:48 GMT
Received: from xhs-rcd-002.cisco.com (173.37.227.247) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:59:48 -0500
Received: from xhs-aln-002.cisco.com (173.37.135.119) by xhs-rcd-002.cisco.com (173.37.227.247) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:59:47 -0500
Received: from NAM12-BN8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (173.37.151.57) by xhs-aln-002.cisco.com (173.37.135.119) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:59:47 -0500
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=XUQxmUHScb6rGBTCiitC1uto7DQlcpFeuAYB/BDWcilW62CSt5pZKZlTJwddnkxtoO/K0TSgUE0OpeYl7Kwzn/zR4crVSjIAvutMD7yi0ogDoOEyy3lAZ7fWVrKXHuxFSxsiDRbr6uoyOvyLV1lmHGbBZ8N8p+H9Kz6GHu+3tiChq0+lfXTU5nGGxPgWIF+bPfPgJSUYKeILtdxVJjeA76fdixvYkII23QQcOONQf7w0gchm5jctM4vLyXMW1+/X4LVnthiqdqVYaK4iJnmqnQeavwV6TLRI2V0/chOzD9UR95nCJUKqanBxDBu8wNv9qDzFCqLI9Qw6CTtDcI7KYQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=To19pxzoKABHEdCjwgkI6/BEjClcgXGkDVM3t+axPZc=; b=TJdiZ4O+v2S0nIgR3K575JZPLj2/bFMXMThUolvEZXhqm/GyUlnzgs5Qm6cCQfaWUgkDKg141Xp8Y4eNjBd0NIku5VRACQd4iBi4yH2Gn5YECA67MePA5X+owoCAefENBs3rLlnoRTcwaZGfdMOBO7QjUAf2acCEsP/zg3ifAUtX2d+NhQ1sK/wpMW1be/ryxt2ns2Xv56/wTzKGiW2w+36RsDzHqTUyd75eyHyWFkWwxpZi2OOW9AXKS/pspY/cvk9rdTLq995r6v2kHNH8lj1JanFvvKEN60RsAAfTWVzg7GOSfQmnmMwDc4TVfute9ZSjJXt5Y6LYIDDjCYPN0Q==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cisco.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cisco.com; dkim=pass header.d=cisco.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-cisco-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=To19pxzoKABHEdCjwgkI6/BEjClcgXGkDVM3t+axPZc=; b=vsAovYVTPiRsh5hRVA2AMWJu6irEApmH+DOKeEmH0IfFXwC1LdsnXEPt1p2BgXDmchjIH7lg0HAzCHpB2m9RHEEt/lWNaHvL+ihVKTgZSzMhjfPPyB6GW7nhfKqG8Nxvl1uUwK2ZdVkZt58TKBfmEb028+GsL75NAGNzGZln0K8=
Received: from BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:7c::14) by BY5PR11MB3879.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:18f::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3455.22; Thu, 8 Oct 2020 00:59:46 +0000
Received: from BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::718c:ac63:d72e:f3c9]) by BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::718c:ac63:d72e:f3c9%4]) with mapi id 15.20.3433.044; Thu, 8 Oct 2020 00:59:46 +0000
From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com>
To: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-idr-rfc8203bis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-rfc8203bis@ietf.org>, "idr-chairs@ietf.org" <idr-chairs@ietf.org>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-idr-rfc8203bis-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AQHWnQdoQAdTOQupHUKqT/naq5NLQqmM39qw
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 00:59:46 +0000
Message-ID: <BYAPR11MB3207D6A626288B19FC942171C00B0@BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <160211580198.31310.1253552691445772469@ietfa.amsl.com>
In-Reply-To: <160211580198.31310.1253552691445772469@ietfa.amsl.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: cooperw.in; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cooperw.in; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com;
x-originating-ip: [2601:647:5701:46e0:4a3:1f38:ea7d:9e8c]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 26864112-0af7-4a02-96c2-08d86b25733d
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR11MB3879:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <BY5PR11MB387940B01DE772B9DF2C7B2AC00B0@BY5PR11MB3879.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: XkWBoL8NgjEgvsnw165yZQIrs+Q/d4r3bkTNyvpyZcCvuto/e14lUa/f/4M7F0E/YIDaaskrsSGMRlNCy+WyDyE+/O1Q+pIzEXWWwYSY3qEBloxYH39XZsgjPye977DxWHRdCiqizOjmbScOLWlsBkbIGazYxz3TalWbTnpeDPoStm+SKfA7SSdP5xgzn26VcybnjgDjiJ8z7eVKj4gvBmVbJ/eZ9St8ZOH3RkMuTxNzwilkIhpvAzLzQwwUPs1nRVGqizd28skPqUDX/1LtOXCdiiHjiDK78Z0t2hmoUXidqmDIdAKuEATAKIVNfro5aZDFbmJE4XkOG5TYkO4j2BNKRsCKcwJKF6+lDy+QQo0EnfYRqqVjJqwjRVMUWY4rovmwdbonEx4H8MAcFiyOFQ==
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(366004)(346002)(376002)(39860400002)(136003)(396003)(7696005)(6506007)(54906003)(316002)(52536014)(53546011)(186003)(110136005)(2906002)(55016002)(71200400001)(8936002)(966005)(9686003)(8676002)(86362001)(66946007)(66574015)(66446008)(64756008)(478600001)(5660300002)(33656002)(4326008)(83080400001)(66476007)(66556008)(83380400001)(76116006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 26864112-0af7-4a02-96c2-08d86b25733d
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Oct 2020 00:59:46.2644 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: qQi5SBiN33vGOxywGnVQA9gqBvZo5K9i4P8uUFYZ2WlmT7OxTtAzZlso0yv0tdpmWFB5VtbuQMwt03FD3RpJ8g==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR11MB3879
X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com
X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.11, xch-aln-001.cisco.com
X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-3.cisco.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/idr/zgLoxjD4C9LY4jHmkOAE-DtyuOA>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-idr-rfc8203bis-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/idr/>
List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 00:59:55 -0000

There is no way to know whether the neighbor supports RFC8203 either,
so the problem is not unique to the bis.

This is a best-effort message for convenience.
The session is going down whether the message makes it or not.
If the peer operator is confused, he will pick up the phone and
call the NOC or whatever else they do today.
The message prevents that phone call.
When maintenance is scheduled, it should be agreed upon beforehand,
so both ends should be expecting the cease notification anyway.
This message serves only as a reminder in case people don't read their email and such.

Regards,
Jakob.

-----Original Message-----
From: Alissa Cooper via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 5:10 PM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-idr-rfc8203bis@ietf.org; idr-chairs@ietf.org; idr@ietf.org; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; aretana.ietf@gmail.com; shares@ndzh.com
Subject: Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-idr-rfc8203bis-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-idr-rfc8203bis-07: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-rfc8203bis/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"If a Shutdown Communication longer than 128 octets is sent to a BGP
   speaker that implements [RFC8203], then that speaker will treat it as
   an error, the consequence of which is a log message.  For this
   reason, operators would be wise to keep shutdown communications to
   less than 128 octets when feasible."

I have a similar question to what Éric asked. Doesn't the above mostly undercut
the value of doing this bis at all? If operators can't expect longer messages
to be understood, will they implement some kind of policy logic or heuristics
to decide when to try to send them and when not? Otherwise, under what
circumstances will they send them?

Was it considered to instead add a new subcode to the BGP Cease NOTIFICATION
subcode registry to capture this case (admin reset or shutdown with long
shutdown message)? That way at least those who want to use it can differentiate
between recipients that don't support RFC 8203, those that do, and those that
support longer communications. I'm not at all steeped in BGP so I'm happy to
drop this if it's unworkable, but I wanted to ask.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

For the IESG: it would be good to discuss a bit if there is some process we can
use to avoid this kind of oversight (that occurred with RFC 8203) in the
future. i18ndir didn't exist when it was published, but even if it had I'm not
sure we would have caught this.