Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-git-using-github-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
"Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com> Fri, 20 March 2020 15:56 UTC
Return-Path: <evyncke@cisco.com>
X-Original-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf-and-github@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 557213A0400; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:56:29 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -9.601
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=Xu5jiUvo; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=gJg7nR/7
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xWRlDrmH72BE; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:56:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A72C3A0A5A; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:56:22 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9304; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1584719782; x=1585929382; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=tIX3/Ct8czF0/LJk/nwhrO4uigXY8JTQ/KeNfiMoM4o=; b=Xu5jiUvo4BIlT4iGSYYtglLPC/y4YIO41bLnCM1JT+JApKXPA9YsttxP Ie/TeduR2lDOXHOtvhV3pQC6k+bqr1FYxBbxc+xpH4eahmgoHq/jKNXRp xA9JzhBb9hySMdZXpwYKxScvDvw06ov/OwefC9d05y6kDHsI1BjiXjdRB E=;
IronPort-PHdr: 9a23:Ltn3uRDPQgQ9GYb68NeZUyQJPHJ1sqjoPgMT9pssgq5PdaLm5Zn5IUjD/qs13kTRU9Dd7PRJw6rNvqbsVHZIwK7JsWtKMfkuHwQAld1QmgUhBMCfDkiuIeD7aSc5EexJVURu+DewNk0GUMs=
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0DiAQBa5nRe/4MNJK1mGwEBAQEBAQEFAQEBEQEBAwMBAQGBe4FUUAVsWCAECyqEGINFA4pwgjoliWqOMoFCgRADVAkBAQEMAQEjCgIEAQGERAIXgg0kOBMCAwEBCwEBBQEBAQIBBQRthVYMhWMBAQEBAgESEREMAQEqAgEKAQsEAgEIEQMBAgECAiYCAgIfERUICAIEAQ0FFA6DBAGCSwMOIAEOoX8CgTmIYnWBMoJ/AQEFgUNBgwgNC4IMAwaBDiqMLxqBQT+BEScMFIJNPoIbSQIBAgGBLAESASGDETKCLI18gjw7nmIyRAqCPIdYimoEhDgdgkuIKpBgjwqJBYI2kCsCBAIEBQIOAQEFgWkiZ1gFDAhwFTsqAYJBUBgNjh0MFxWDO4UUhUF0AoEnjWkBAQ
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.72,285,1580774400"; d="scan'208";a="735874268"
Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 20 Mar 2020 15:56:15 +0000
Received: from XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (xch-rcd-001.cisco.com [173.37.102.11]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 02KFuFmY017919 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:56:15 GMT
Received: from xhs-rtp-001.cisco.com (64.101.210.228) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:56:14 -0500
Received: from xhs-rtp-001.cisco.com (64.101.210.228) by xhs-rtp-001.cisco.com (64.101.210.228) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:56:14 -0400
Received: from NAM11-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (64.101.32.56) by xhs-rtp-001.cisco.com (64.101.210.228) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 11:56:13 -0400
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=WdsfFA7n1AqwaWWHSU4e93Pt0FSvZBpmB2E2b9Ry/PXbKQs5U5eCU9/EK3C+UGjb7IBR4ezYoQPvr8PD88/eXoqiOHX5O+U/DOmWM1Jv44jPDse4JXjZt4KLwWTGDAjvtAL0iSOlGxmOjDHBF4BZ/I6Is4QY7DYh8rOGM2Ga7qW/EG2F2kngE0EKZ0Yk0wWnRsiGrcLDt4iZbs6N/i8mtbTThSxGqUnGf7RX7ZXNWuzoiV9SpLxoHc/HVMQ8+5EzQX97zbw6x3aB+iRq3MmYijbASzFbkRqS6Uqrtn1+arIaZq44twSR2Cq7jWDo1aX3TRGtpaC1XKhnyNFZ/4MrOw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=tIX3/Ct8czF0/LJk/nwhrO4uigXY8JTQ/KeNfiMoM4o=; b=YNi9N8DqrgXrYmsHp7SSzZRB8M5NL0WGkVpFrKDVykZm2OL3PDeDAduxaZTh7tdiPmQ8qMZSXONDtAycaAsB9aCuaMc0BBG9CuMAEHRDFdfHfpTk0Bt4R7Bvpv322At41sf1aLHzETAbNEpxbZG46/rOZeZ/0W/nUB8MV9HK/AI2XhFtRfFm6AsGGeIxiJxaRkoIF7pZpy4A8DKeacHWgSeJCgosJUxz9n1CzwK0dQOHDT2KluFIAjBOb4/CbYNt4koHxoiAaDAMFwAbusW7ZKSrXOyk2O4EuevNb6LeF965eKjm4eH4uewEhC7qaq6lMTie+7YyYy6/M/FW+K8e+w==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cisco.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cisco.com; dkim=pass header.d=cisco.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-cisco-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=tIX3/Ct8czF0/LJk/nwhrO4uigXY8JTQ/KeNfiMoM4o=; b=gJg7nR/77KqLbi4+q5uKvcwEMvJS5D1jkDw1Aae9HW8NHkMM2GuxfuqdWPyu1bqdE7TI7DMVWKCt241jxdWb5l6gc9fd3obVAFZ60jhSjOMK3Zpahpldd+4c8LVr/dHOyqd6VWH/dmjXuwaajfxY7msjQqzVtqHtRqBY/D3yyC0=
Received: from DM5PR11MB1753.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:3:10d::13) by DM5PR11MB1322.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:3:d::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2835.18; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:54:59 +0000
Received: from DM5PR11MB1753.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::680d:e22e:72d5:67ca]) by DM5PR11MB1753.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::680d:e22e:72d5:67ca%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2814.025; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:54:59 +0000
From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>
To: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-git-using-github@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-git-using-github@ietf.org>, "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" <ietf-and-github@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "git-chairs@ietf.org" <git-chairs@ietf.org>, Christopher Wood <caw@heapingbits.net>
Thread-Topic: Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-git-using-github-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AQHV/sbX+JAhRreilka6hVILokeMbqhRswUA
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:54:59 +0000
Message-ID: <5EA09047-A7AB-4414-9517-68C90417B75C@cisco.com>
References: <158395281137.1671.933778421064897517@ietfa.amsl.com> <0B459F07-A301-4F75-8BE4-97D3372727C9@cooperw.in>
In-Reply-To: <0B459F07-A301-4F75-8BE4-97D3372727C9@cooperw.in>
Accept-Language: fr-BE, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802
authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evyncke@cisco.com;
x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c1:36:6d6a:63f0:b113:dc19]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 03b5c34e-84e7-4291-7c33-08d7cce70b3b
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR11MB1322:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <DM5PR11MB13225CDF8A141A6D52E89BF8A9F50@DM5PR11MB1322.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;
x-forefront-prvs: 03484C0ABF
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(366004)(376002)(39860400002)(136003)(396003)(346002)(199004)(53546011)(54906003)(81166006)(2616005)(66946007)(66556008)(66446008)(91956017)(76116006)(6512007)(71200400001)(186003)(66476007)(33656002)(64756008)(66574012)(6506007)(8936002)(5660300002)(6486002)(110136005)(478600001)(2906002)(8676002)(81156014)(316002)(36756003)(4326008)(966005)(86362001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:DM5PR11MB1322; H:DM5PR11MB1753.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: cisco.com does not designate permitted sender hosts)
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: L4mjguseVCLhTQUoYJqgamHFW1Yt72Cju3+4+P3GG0paBnyNH4u+GbGeBViPYoE+z4DG2Nu10mT5CksSlBmy+k8IyuYImsjLWOlOyz/iutiUAsidLsIpFvrraMtp+1oQGjVrpDrgaBvgmaSO6PDxC4iS1tCYLTgHbXSIiCL5N2RQQNWWU1eSfRzIu1L4Amb5WQTbP9/mek0HKSxi/KJ7iw==
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-ID: <1EC238AB54A99B458F24DD5C10A0B5E2@namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 03b5c34e-84e7-4291-7c33-08d7cce70b3b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Mar 2020 15:54:59.3284 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Jdr0Cgz/b2w+4qGtfwpBZgISxrzAVYDevDse5WyPu3Vb1CKpjkL9YV7urGENn+kbUWuzxt+kiEnMvrZf7ngt7w==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR11MB1322
X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com
X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com
X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-1.cisco.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-and-github/AZBL-7rap6bHwZI2h1_QYIEI5kE>
Subject: Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-git-using-github-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: ietf-and-github@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of using GitHub in IETF activities, particularly for Working Groups" <ietf-and-github.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf-and-github>, <mailto:ietf-and-github-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-and-github/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-and-github@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-and-github-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-and-github>, <mailto:ietf-and-github-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:56:30 -0000
A very good and wise change -éric -----Original Message----- From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> Date: Friday, 20 March 2020 at 15:50 To: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> Cc: "draft-ietf-git-using-github@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-git-using-github@ietf.org>, "ietf-and-github@ietf.org" <ietf-and-github@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "git-chairs@ietf.org" <git-chairs@ietf.org>, Christopher Wood <caw@heapingbits.net> Subject: Re: Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draft-ietf-git-using-github-05: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) FYI, the status of this document was changed to informational. Alissa > On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:53 PM, Alvaro Retana via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-git-using-github-05: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-git-using-github/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is a process DISCUSS. I don't believe the status of this document as a > BCP belonging to BCP 25 was discussed in the WG or with the IETF community. > > The Charter for the git WG only explicitly mentions BCP 9: > > The documents produced by this group will not alter the Internet Standards > Process (BCP 9). They will describe how to work within it. Whether working > groups choose to use GitHub or the documented policies to support their work > will remain entirely at their discretion. > > However, including this document as a part of BCP 25 (IETF Working Group > Guidelines and Procedures) results in the interpretation that it represents > consensus on how WGs should proceed -- and not that the decision "to use GitHub > or the documented policies...[is]...entirely at their discretion." > > My reading of the mailing list is that the current RFC Editor note (in which > appending the document to BCP 25 is requested) was added only after the topic > was brought up in the Genart LC review. [Did I miss the discussion?] > > IOW, both (1) the process of reaching the conclusion that this document belongs > in BCP 25, and (2) the concept that this document would be part of BCP 25, are > the subject of my DISCUSS. I would like for the IESG to discuss this topic. > > Not expecting this document to be part of BCP 25, or having an explicit > discussion with the community about it, would lead me to clear my DISCUSS. > > ==== > [Non blocking comment. I'm including it here because it is related to the > status of the document.] > > This document would be very good Informational document. > > I am not a regular GitHub user (and none of the WGs I'm responsible for use it > as part of their process), but I have no reason to doubt that the text > represents what is believed to be the best way to use GitHub within the IETF > process. However, the designation as a BCP can create confusion. [Again, this > is a non-blocking comment.] > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > (0) I share Warren's concerns. > > (1) The datatracker should list draft-thomson-git-using-github as being > replaced by this document. > > (2) It would be nice to have a short terminology section; I assume many people > reading this document will not already be GitHub-savy, so push, pull, commits, > may not be familiar to them. Alternatively, an Informational pointer to a > tutorial would also be ok. > > (3) Personally, I don't have an issue with the use of GitHub, but some of the > statements in the Introduction sound like marketing blurbs, for example: > > - "Use of this service has been found to reduce the time that Working Groups > need to produce documents and to improve the quality of the final result." > > - "...encourage contributions from a larger set of contributors." > > - "Using GitHub can also broaden the community of contributors for a > specification." > > (4) [nit] s/This is problematic for contributors who do not track discussion > closely./This is problematic for contributors who do not track discussions > closely. > > (5) [major] §5.3: "Working Group chairs SHOULD confirm that the Working Group > has consensus to adopt any process." When would the chairs not confirm > consensus to adopt a process? IOW, why is this not a MUST? > > Note that §3 says this: > > Working Group Chairs are responsible for determining how to best > accomplish the charter objectives in an open and transparent fashion. > The Working Group Chairs are responsible for determining if there is > interest in using GitHub and making a consensus call to determine if > the proposed policy and use is acceptable. > > Even though this text doesn't use rfc2119 keywords, my impression of the intent > is that it is required for the chairs to make the consensus call. IOW, I think > that this text and the one above (from §5.3) are in conflict. > > (6) §5.3.2: > > Gaining Working Group consensus about the resolution of issues can be > done in the abstract, with editors being permitted to capture the > outcome of discussions as they see fit. > > This sentence doesn't sound right to me: "consensus...can be done in the > abstract, with editors being permitted to capture the outcome...as they see > fit". That last part doesn't sound right: Chairs call consensus. Maybe I'm > misinterpreting... > > (7) [major]. Why is draft-ietf-git-github-wg-configuration listed as a > Normative Reference? I don't think that dependency is needed. > > >
- [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on draf… Alvaro Retana via Datatracker
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Alvaro Retana
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Martin Thomson
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Alvaro Retana
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Erik Kline
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Ietf-and-github] Alvaro Retana's Discuss on … Eric Vyncke (evyncke)