Re: [Ietf-languages] adjectival usage of variant subtags

Mark Davis ☕️ <mark@macchiato.com> Sun, 06 December 2020 23:17 UTC

Return-Path: <mark.edward.davis@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9721F3A0D29 for <ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 6 Dec 2020 15:17:52 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.722
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.722 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=macchiato-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id adAZzSDh4ZME for <ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 6 Dec 2020 15:17:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 856B33A0D27 for <ietf-languages@ietf.org>; Sun, 6 Dec 2020 15:17:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) id C842D7C5432; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 00:07:53 +0100 (CET)
Delivered-To: ietf-languages@alvestrand.no
X-Comment: SPF skipped for whitelisted relay - client-ip=192.0.46.73; helo=pechora3.dc.icann.org; envelope-from=mark.edward.davis@gmail.com; receiver=ietf-languages@alvestrand.no
Received: from pechora3.dc.icann.org (pechora3.icann.org [192.0.46.73]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8070C7C401A for <ietf-languages@alvestrand.no>; Mon, 7 Dec 2020 00:07:53 +0100 (CET)
Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pechora3.dc.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D624700061B for <ietf-languages@iana.org>; Sun, 6 Dec 2020 23:07:51 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id n142so866703qkn.2 for <ietf-languages@iana.org>; Sun, 06 Dec 2020 15:07:51 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=macchiato-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RSmaeLsmBUx7conzvIcEwGeGWHEHtgxeO8aakKdLaQs=; b=GJsjjYIdogGJ93WT4iJSIPvrNQ+95ZzXHvOLsMt0WTOB3lEDC248Xpz3u+pe3T1K98 0uIq1jK1L172KIeZXWQHQniJtdjc8gzRSQB0gneWELvf0qe/J4Z/lRgG9AWH5stohM2w wp5cIF3Im3qrW0dt/1NC/gXRCE5yeJpNrZRCg0B5u4jAPoqRCXuYB6BBfHiVgI0Mic8f x3XdjAD0R16T+v3AqvrjN5FT9eb+Hpzeof1Y9N11Cp7py5MTYFZZixket5LPC81T6/Tb NpiLGHr1H9tsY27UXnaiOW2h+rJYMZgh8QACbsp0xkGj19RXKZ2/3DTnFpgQ1YG/s1SG VHtA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RSmaeLsmBUx7conzvIcEwGeGWHEHtgxeO8aakKdLaQs=; b=aMCk4+fQEpky82NuLBeHW0o0jD/eGjtw8YuNxt1mDZUj9EjYHpgLfbk8dGeNfpYuiM i3V8vLDX9wjuUkj9AgK+v8osxVL54YIr4h+0ccMo2zh7SsS2Zuoexlo2FwhbloDPilNj q6OsqcoZMvLCOdkEDaCMD5QS5z+CaBrThlCCMLKW2aj8RpSp/Krn8rd2DJVbnqps4pK8 XWX+GOqmvzMQWLazrZnV1TPIPwaVeN9l8Vb1WHuEEeqqq41x/KsQ3XjG4/nG3pnYGFb0 SMsSnrFriXIGaApZQSsnDhy59UJROucNY7EX9qxle3ig6Q+39/w785LF2tyAhkQqqW3M ycNA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530EUM6CTjvgBfCWxdd8A7LQdE36F/LIDEY/l77XPIIGsILkPziv PsoU21dFsqm/EZUBgxQBZr+QGxniS9yvP9zldstv6YRB/As=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz49aMT3yg63coDjYR62RzA2qqwopiEhb0Z6ECG4liSg7cZX869lnwJnxQIAe0ENiaUI+Xx+gEfY5e/WDq9Xh4=
X-Received: by 2002:a37:341:: with SMTP id 62mr6547745qkd.221.1607296050804; Sun, 06 Dec 2020 15:07:30 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20201129165255.665a7a7059d7ee80bb4d670165c8327d.447298ad23.wbe@email15.godaddy.com> <CAJ2xs_GgEgUv9i3WG0+kQG=_r-JtiLvBoWuOksqT7odRjkkiDA@mail.gmail.com> <8512F327-A7BE-43CA-A8C1-1F2FB5483C72@evertype.com>
In-Reply-To: <8512F327-A7BE-43CA-A8C1-1F2FB5483C72@evertype.com>
From: Mark Davis ☕️ <mark@macchiato.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2020 15:07:18 -0800
Message-ID: <CAJ2xs_GdcZXh8iGK-x7C7kt7E9Zs3Fd5UXtNkOzPAwScj8peqw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com>
Cc: ietflang IETF Languages Discussion <ietf-languages@iana.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000283b6805b5d3c630"
X-Greylist: Sender passed SPF test, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (pechora3.dc.icann.org [0.0.0.0]); Sun, 06 Dec 2020 23:07:51 +0000 (UTC)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-languages/0R51twDN5AE8dEce4nwLzsl4KGU>
Subject: Re: [Ietf-languages] adjectival usage of variant subtags
X-BeenThere: ietf-languages@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-languages.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf-languages>, <mailto:ietf-languages-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-languages/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-languages@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-languages-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages>, <mailto:ietf-languages-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2020 23:17:53 -0000

That's a strawman; one doesn't need to enumerate them.

One can have a simple policy for when it comes time to add a variant that
could have general applicability, such as "vestland" (for 'Western
Norwegian' = vestlandsk). In such a case, use the corresponding general
word "western" instead, and add to the description the example 'no-western
= Norwegian Vestlandsk'. Then there is no need to have a special variant
for Western Slovak dialects, and innumerable other cases.

Of course, where such a variant is not applicable (eg, there is no dialect
of Chickasaw that it would make sense to call 'Western'), there is no
purpose to using that variant. But that is no different than
other productive uses of language subtags, say, ja-AQ.

Mark


On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 7:32 PM Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com> wrote:

> This is why we have preferred specific subtags referring to specific
> entities, rather than
>
> northern, southern. eastern, western, northeastern, southeastern,
> northwestern, southwestern, central, peripheral, secret, male, female,
> hill, valley, plains, mountain, coastal, insular, archaic, old, middle,
> catholic, protestant… all of this is too vague and there would be scores of
> additional geographical or social generic tags. It is not wise to try to
> enumerate these.
>
> Michael
>
> > On 30 Nov 2020, at 00:16, Mark Davis ☕️ <mark@macchiato.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well, if the registry had {eastern, western, northern, southern,
> central} variants, then someone could have sv-northern. The meaning would
> be the customary meaning of 'northern' — a variety spoken in the northern
> part of the area of the Earth in which that language is typically spoken.
> It is quite common to distinguish varieties based on general geographical
> location: look at Kurdish.
> >
> > For many languages that 'adjective' would not be particularly useful,
> and like any subtag, should be avoided where it does not mark a useful
> distinction. For example, for English it would not be particularly useful.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> Ietf-languages@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
>