Re: [Ietf-languages] Sark and Sercquiais, and Norman French
Hugh Paterson III <sil.linguist@gmail.com> Tue, 07 February 2023 00:52 UTC
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From: Hugh Paterson III <sil.linguist@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:52:41 -0800
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To: CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com>
Cc: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, "ietf-languages@ietf.org" <ietf-languages@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ietf-languages] Sark and Sercquiais, and Norman French
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Doug can you contact me off-line I’d like to discuss the matter of that paper and others that build off of it. - Hugh On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 4:34 PM CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com> wrote: > I do not think I can help much with any efforts to add "Norman French" -- > though doing so might be a good idea as there is a movement to revive > Norman French in Normandy it seems, but I know squat. Here is what I found: > > > https://www.ouest-france.fr/normandie/caen-14000/normandie-des-mesures-pour-preserver-le-dialecte-regional-6404518 > 2019 > "En 2008, une grande étude menée dans toute la Normandie recensait 20 000 > individus maîtrisant les rudiments de la langue. C’est peu à l’échelle des > trois millions d’habitants de la région." > 20,000 out of three million Normans master the rudiments of Norman, says a > [large? not sure how large] 2008 study. > > "Des cafés normands vont voir le jour. Ceux qui le veulent vont pouvoir > s’y retrouver pour converser dans la langue de notre région. Les premiers > rendez-vous auront lieu dans la Manche, à Bricquebec, puis à Cherbourg, en > septembre. Une grande bibliothèque du « parler normand » est en cours de > réalisation. L’idée est de créer un glossaire des mots et expressions de > notre dialecte ancestral." > > Norman cafes [cafes to speak Norman in] will appear. Those who want to do > so will be able to get together [in the cafes I guess] to converse in our > regional language [Norman]. The first get-togethers will take place in La > Manche, in Bricquebec, then in Cherbourg, in September. A great library of > "spoken Norman" is in the process of being developed. The idea is to create > a glossary of words and expressions . . . > (The cafes were supposed to have appeared in September of 2019/2020; I > know nothing about this but see the URL below for a follow-up) > > https://www.normandie.fr/la-sauvegarde-des-parlers-normands > 2022 is a follow up -- the page was closing on my 2015 Windows 8 Nextbook > with no keyboard; it is in French but you can access it and put it through > google translate. > > Well here is some: > ""Le P’tit Colas en normaund" paru chez IMAV éditions, est disponible en > librairie depuis le 24 septembre 2020. Il s’adresse aux enfants, à leurs > parents ainsi qu’à tous les Normands qui ont à coeur de faire vivre leur > patrimoine linguistique." > "Le Petit Nicolas en Normande" ("Little Nick/Nicholas in Norman") > published with IMAV press, has been available in bookstore[s?] since > September 24, 2020. It is aimed at kids, . . ." Cute series. I know it in > French. > > Best, > -- C. E. Whitehead > cewcathar@hotmail.com > > ------------------------------ > *De :* Ietf-languages <ietf-languages-bounces@ietf.org> de la part de > Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> > *Envoyé :* dimanche 29 janvier 2023 23:02 > *À :* ietf-languages@ietf.org <ietf-languages@ietf.org> > *Objet :* [Ietf-languages] Sark and Sercquiais, and Norman French > > There is about half a day left in the review period to add the Sark region > subtag and to add Sercquiais to the ‘nrf’ language subtag. > > I noticed that, although the ISO 639-3 code element [nrf] lists only the > dialects Guernésiais and Jèrriais — because that is what was requested of > ISO 639-3/RA in 2014 — “Norman French” per se is an active language in > Normandy, with approximately 20,000 speakers (Wikipedia, after Ethnologue). > That’s about ten times as many speakers as the Channel Islands dialects > combined. > > Frances Gillis-Webber and Sabine Tittel wrote in their paper, “A Framework > for Shared Agreement of Language Tags beyond ISO 639” (2020): > > > For the majority of French regional varieties, ISO 639 codes are > > not available, exceptions being ISO 639-3 ‘nrf’ for the Norman > > dialect[16], ‘pcd’ for Picard, and ‘wln’ for Walloon. > > > > [16] Falsely described as «Guernésiais, Jèrriais» which excludes > > the continental area. > > While Gillis-Webber and Tittel promote some serious and damaging > misunderstandings about BCP 47, in this paper and others that build on it — > which I will cover in a future post — I believe they have a point in this > case. The existing code element [xno] is for Anglo-Norman, which is not > quite Norman French, but either a dialect of it or a separate language > altogether. > > Expanding ‘nrf’ in the Registry, by adding a Description field, to cover > the parent language Norman French seems outside the authority of BCP 47, > much more so than adding Sercquiais. At some point I may propose this > update to ISO 639-3/RA instead. But I bring it up here in case others on > the list feel otherwise, and believe it should be added to the current > Sercquiais proposal. > > -- > Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > -- All the best, -Hugh Sent from my iPhone
- [Ietf-languages] Sark and Sercquiais, and Norman … Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Sark and Sercquiais, and Nor… CE Whitehead
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Sark and Sercquiais, and Nor… Hugh Paterson III