Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Script Designation in the subtag registry
Mark Davis ☕️ <mark@macchiato.com> Wed, 12 August 2020 21:26 UTC
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From: Mark Davis ☕️ <mark@macchiato.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:26:25 -0700
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To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Cc: Daniel LaVon Billings <daniel=40ChurchofJesusChrist.org@dmarc.ietf.org>, ietf-languages@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Script Designation in the subtag registry
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Doug is right (as usual) And moreover, most software assumes that variant subtags won't be used in language subtags. You won't get a fallback from Latg to Latn, or from Aran to Arab.If they do occur, then they will at best be ignored — and at worst disrupt normal processing, such as: matching a user's preferred languages to a system's supported languages, or picking the allowed characters from the script (for script variants, Unicode Unicode the empty set of characters). Mark On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 2:14 PM Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> wrote: > You are, of course, perfectly at liberty to tag content as “ur-Aran” to > specify the Nastaliq variant, just as you can use “cmn-Latn” to specify > Mandarin written in Latin. Neither BCP 47 nor the contents of the Registry > is locking or holding back anyone in that regard. > > > > Suppress-Script isn’t really meant as a font selection device for any > language. There are hundreds or thousands of languages known to be written > predominantly in a particular script, for which there is no Suppress-Script > value. > > > > We can certainly check with ISO 15924/RA-JAC to see if there is any > unstated expectation that ‘Arab’ implies the Naskh variant. > > > > -- > > Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org > > > > > > *From:* Ietf-languages <ietf-languages-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Daniel > LaVon Billings > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 12, 2020 14:49 > *To:* Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>; ietf-languages@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Script > Designation in the subtag registry > > > > It seems like it could be generally assumed that Arab was created to > signify the Naskh variant because otherwise, there isn’t a reason for > creating the Aran script code. We need our applications to use a Nastaliq > font whenever Urdu is called since that is the standard for Urdu, but this > subtag registry currently is in competition with that ideology. We have > plenty of use cases to use cmn-Latn (for Romanized Chinese text) or other > variants of the standard tagging that we know why they are different from > the standard, but in Urdu’s case, we would never want Urdu to use a > non-Nastaliq font. > > > > Daniel Billings | Internationalization and Translation Systems Manager > > *Language Services and Area Support* > > *Publishing Services Department* > > daniel@churchofjesuschrist..org <daniel@churchofjesuschrist.org> > > > > “We shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides > over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our > battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is for the > vigilant, the active, the brave.” – Patrick Henry > > > > *From:* Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 12, 2020 2:41 PM > *To:* Daniel LaVon Billings <daniel@ChurchofJesusChrist..org > <daniel@ChurchofJesusChrist.org>>; ietf-languages@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Script > Designation in the subtag registry > > > > Hi Daniel, > > > > The purpose of Suppress-Script in BCP 47 is to improve compatibility > between BCP 47 applications and those written to older specifications, > which did not support script subtags. > > > > There was a great deal of concern, in the mid-’00s when RFC 4646 was being > developed, that the new script subtags would be overused, so that, for > example, users who previously tagged English content as “en” or “en-US” > would start tagging it as “en-Latn” or “en-Latn-US” instead. This would add > virtually no information to the tag, because English is normally written in > the Latin script; but it could cause compatibility problems with processes > that did not understand the script subtag. Suppress-Script was devised as a > way to discourage users from adding unnecessary script subtags like this. > It is optional, pragmatic, and suggestive in nature; it does not attempt to > provide a scholarly reference about the language. > > > > By changing the Suppress-Script for Urdu from ‘Arab’ to ‘Aran’, we would > be essentially saying that the tag “ur-Arab” does add significant > information beyond the tag “ur”, which is not true (most Urdu content is > indeed written in the Arabic script) and in my opinion would be a step > backward. Note that there is no corresponding script subtag for “Arabic > script (Naskh variant).” > > > > I suspect, somewhat echoing Peter, that most users do not even know ‘Aran’ > exists or why it is separately encoded. While I understand some of the > thought process behind this proposal, I agree that the change should not be > made. > > > > -- > > Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org > > > > > > *From:* Ietf-languages <ietf-languages-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Daniel > LaVon Billings > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 12, 2020 11:56 > *To:* ietf-languages@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Script Designation > in the subtag registry > > > > Urdu is listed as Arab script reference in the subtag registry when it > should have the newer approved Aran designation: > > > > > https://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry > <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iana.org%2Fassignments%2Flanguage-subtag-registry%2Flanguage-subtag-registry&data=02%7C01%7Cdaniel%40ChurchofJesusChrist.org%7C545e43ff302c400ec52a08d83efffb94%7C61e6eeb35fd74aaaae3c61e8deb09b79%7C0%7C1%7C637328616450395840&sdata=ZtjuTkXdvC29fzHO9Rjti0Ae1Tnqvt0C4cMUSBQhlxI%3D&reserved=0> > > > > Urdu should be using the Aran script, not the Arab script: > > > > %% > > Type: language > > Subtag: ur > > Description: Urdu > > Added: 2005-10-16 > > Suppress-Script: Arab > > %% > > > > %% > > Type: script > > Subtag: Aran > > Description: Arabic (Nastaliq variant) > > Added: 2014-12-11 > > %% > > > > How can we get the subtag registry to be updated? > > > > Daniel Billings | Internationalization and Translation Systems Manager > > *Language Services and Area Support* > > *Publishing Services Department* > > daniel@churchofjesuschrist...org <daniel@churchofjesuschrist.org> > > > > “We shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides > over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our > battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is for the > vigilant, the active, the brave.” – Patrick Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages >
- [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Script… Daniel LaVon Billings
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Peter Constable
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Daniel LaVon Billings
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Daniel LaVon Billings
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Mark Davis ☕️
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Peter Constable
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Richard Wordingham
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Peter Constable
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… r12a
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Hugh Paterson III
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Richard Wordingham
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Peter Constable
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Mark Davis ☕️
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Mark Davis ☕️
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… John Cowan
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Richard Wordingham
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Richard Wordingham
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Shawn Steele
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Likely subtags howlers Richard Wordingham
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Likely subtags howlers Mark Davis ☕️
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Richard Wordingham
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Richard Wordingham
- [Ietf-languages] Default tagging Martin Hosken
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Michael Everson
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Michael Everson
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Suggestion to update Urdu Sc… Richard Wordingham