Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host Identifiers
Brandon Williams <brandon.williams@akamai.com> Mon, 09 June 2014 13:47 UTC
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Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2014 09:46:59 -0400
From: Brandon Williams <brandon.williams@akamai.com>
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To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>
References: <E87B771635882B4BA20096B589152EF628724B2C@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <539016BE.3070008@gmx.net> <53906711.5070406@cs.tcd.ie> <5390CEC9.3000005@isi.edu> <5D2CC7D6-D9E1-49A8-818C-5FB33DC283C0@cisco.com> <5393119F.6050805@cs.tcd.ie>
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Cc: "ietf-privacy@ietf.org" <ietf-privacy@ietf.org>, Internet Area <int-area@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host Identifiers
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Hi Stephen, On 06/07/2014 09:20 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > Adding new identifiers with privacy impact, as proposed here, is > quite different. It is not the intention of the authors for this to be a solution draft. The draft is intended to describe address sharing use cases and deployment scenarios. Would you please indicate where the draft proposes a new identifier? If you are seeing a proposal for protocol changes somewhere in the draft, editing work is required in order to either clarify or excise the associated text. Thanks, --Brandon On 06/07/2014 09:20 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hi Dan, > > On 07/06/14 02:38, Dan Wing wrote: >> >> Stephen, >> >> It seems NAPT has become IETF's privacy feature of 2014 because >> multiple users are sharing one identifier (IP address and presumably >> randomized ports [RFC6056], although many NAPT deployments use >> address ranges because of fear of compressing log files). As a >> former co-chair of BEHAVE it is refreshing to see the IETF embracing >> NAPT as a desirable feature. > > Embracing seems like significant overstatement to me, but maybe > that's understandable given how calmly NAT is generally debated. > > NATs have both good and bad properties. The slightly better privacy > is one of the good ones. > > Recognising that reality is neither embracing nor refreshing IMO, > nor does it mean NAPT is (un)desirable overall. (That's an argument > I only ever watch from the side-lines thanks:-) > >> However, if NAPT provides privacy and NAT Reveal removes it, where >> does that leave a host's IPv6 source address with respect to BCP188? >> >> Afterall, an IPv6 address is quite traceable, even with IPv6 privacy >> addresses (especially as IPv6 privacy addresses are currently >> deployed which only obtain a new IPv6 privacy address every 24 hours >> or when attaching to a new network). If BCP188 does not prevent >> deployment of IPv6, I would like to understand the additional privacy >> leakage of IPv4+NAT+NAT_Reveal compared to the privacy leakage of >> IPv6+privacy_address. > > I'm frankly amazed that that's not crystal clear to anyone who > has read all 2.5 non-boilerplate pages of the BCP. Or even just > the last two words of the 1-line abstract (hint: those say "where > possible.") > > Yes, source addresses leak information that affects privacy. But > we do not have a practical way to mitigate that. So therefore > BCP188 does not call for doing stupid stuff, nor for new laws of > physics (unlike -04 of the draft we're discussing;-) > > Adding new identifiers with privacy impact, as proposed here, is > quite different. > > S. > > PS: If someone wants to propose what they think is a practical > way to mitigate the privacy issues with source addresses, please > write a draft first and then start a separate thread somewhere. > > >> >> -d >> > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > -- Brandon Williams; Senior Principal Software Engineer Emerging Products Engineering; Akamai Technologies Inc.
- [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host Identifiers Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host Identifiers Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host Identifiers mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host Identifiers Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host Identifiers mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [ietf-privacy] NAT Reveal / Host Identifiers mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] WG Adoption Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] WG Adoption Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Horne, Rob
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Eric Burger
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… David Singer
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Dan Wing
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brandon Williams
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brandon Williams
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Eliot Lear
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… joel jaeggli
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Eliot Lear
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Ted Lemon
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Dirk.von-Hugo
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Joe Touch
- Re: [ietf-privacy] [Int-area] NAT Reveal / Host I… Brandon Williams