Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requirement in RFC 5321
John C Klensin <john@jck.com> Sun, 27 September 2020 16:36 UTC
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Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 12:36:38 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john@jck.com>
To: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, ietf-smtp@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requirement in RFC 5321
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--On Sunday, September 27, 2020 11:40 -0400 John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote: >> I would say instead that because some subset of inbound MTAs >> do EHLO verification, "real mail servers" (i.e. those which >> manage to continue to deliver mail with some reliability) >> are forced to have static IPv4 source addresses for which >> PTR lookup results match EHLO arguments. > > No, we've observed in practice that hosts that don't have > matching PTRs are spambots. >... >>> Anything that comes from a dynamic or NAT pool is invariably >>> spam from a botnet. >... John, (as with Keith earlier comment, this is not intended to be a rant, but might come out sounding that way) This is a self-fulfilling prophecy which gets back to Keith's comment about resources. In order to run an SMTP client or server with any of the three ISPs I've dealt with recently, and do so without violating the contracts they impose, I first have to obtain a business account which is not much different from a residential account other than costing three or four times as much. Because the anti-spam powers that be don't think I should be running either an SMTP server or a client on dynamic addresses (even if I have dynamic DNS set up properly and appropriate MX arrangements), I have to then obtain one or more static addresses from said ISP and the costs of those are not going down [1]. And, since the idea of delegating reverse-mapping ranges on bit boundaries failed, once one has those static addresses, one than has to convince the ISP to provide the correct reverse mapping. That, too, has costs - either in terms of money or in efforts to negotiate. There may be ISPs out there who, upon supplying a static address or address range inquire how one would like the reverse mapping records to read, or even insist on getting that information, but I haven't encountered one yet. So, if the goal, however unintentionally, is to further reduce the number of independent (and legitimate) SMTP clients and servers, and force those without extensive resources to shift over to large and dominant email providers, perhaps we are on track. > It would be nice if mail still worked the way it did 30 years > ago, but that was most definitely then, and this is now. And, from the standpoint of those large providers, the fight against spam and other sorts of evil behavior would be ever so much easier if they had only a handful of other providers to work with s.t. anything not coming from one of them was suspect. Of course, the way DMARC was developed and deployed might be believed to reflect exactly that attitude. john [1] I don't know that I believe it but I've heard it suggested that some ISPs are doing less than they might to encourage IPv6 adoptions because they couldn't get away with charging nearly as much for static addresses in that space.
- [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requirement in… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Russ Allbery
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Claus Assmann
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Richard Clayton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Laura Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Laura Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Laura Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Laura Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Mark Andrews
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Mark Andrews
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Richard Clayton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Richard Clayton
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Keith Moore
- Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requiremen… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Claus Assmann
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Claus Assmann
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Claus Assmann
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … John R Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Evert Mouw
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Claus Assmann
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Laura Atkins
- Re: [ietf-smtp] own mail server: DNS / static IP … Sam Varshavchik