Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people refuse to implement parts of it ?
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> Sat, 05 June 2021 16:56 UTC
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Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2021 12:55:55 -0400
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From: John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
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Subject: Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people refuse to implement parts of it ?
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It appears that John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> said: >No. I am asking a much more pragmatic question or pair of >questions: (i) whether making a change in this area (see below) >is worth, at this particular point, opening up RFC 6531 and/or >6532 (and reviewing whether other documents in the SMTPUTF8 >collection to see if they need similar adjustments) would be >worth the trouble and (ii) whether there is the energy to do >that and to do it well. At this point, tne answer is clearly no. I was asking as part of the EAI testing I'm doing for the UASG, to figure out how hard I should try to persuade people to fix their code to pass that particular test. (Not very, since they all say no anyway.) FWIW, Gmail and Hotmail/Live/Office365 which I believe are the largest EAI-enabled mail systems in the world, also have A labels. Of course, when I looked at a test message I sent to my Hotmail account, I found this gem, so A-labels are hardly their biggest issue. Check out those "with" and "via" clauses: Authentication-Results: =?gb2312?B?c3BmPW5vbmUgKHNlbmRlciBJUCBpcyAxMDguMTYxLjEzMy4xMzYpIHNtdHAu?= =?gb2312?B?bWFpbGZyb209eG4tLTVucTIxanl1OWQxdGEueG4tLTVucXg0MWF1NG5xb2hz?= =?gb2312?B?cDNheGNnLnhuLS1maXFzOHM7IGhvdG1haWwuY29tOyBka2ltPW5vbmUgKG1l?= =?gb2312?B?c3NhZ2Ugbm90IHNpZ25lZCkgaGVhZGVyLmQ9bm9uZTtob3RtYWlsLmNvbTsg?= =?gb2312?B?ZG1hcmM9ZmFpbCBhY3Rpb249bm9uZSBoZWFkZXIuZnJvbT23osvN08q8/i4=?= =?gb2312?B?tefX09PKvP6y4srULtbQufo7Y29tcGF1dGg9cGFzcyByZWFzb249MTA1?= Received-SPF: None (protection.outlook.com: xn--5nq21jyu9d1ta.xn--5nqx41au4nqohsp3axcg.xn--fiqs8s does not designate permitted sender hosts) Received: from xn--5nq21jyu9d1ta.xn--5nqx41au4nqohsp3axcg.xn--fiqs8s (108.161.133.136) by AM5EUR03FT048.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.17.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4195.21 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 5 Jun 2021 16:23:47 +0000 I have found pretty good support for exhanging mail with EAI addresses. Those two hosted mail systems do so and most open source MTAs have adequate EAI support, Postfic, Exim, Courier, and now even sendmail (in beta, but it works.) What I have not found is a lot of support for hosting their own EAI addresses. You can do it in the open source stuff, but nobody does. It's fairly painful to do so for a variety of reasons. On most systems foo@<A-label> and foo@<U-label> are not mapped together so you have to make two addresses for everyone, and MUA support is spotty at best. Ned has described some of the reasons that even though Oracle's MTA has code to support local EAI addresses, nobody uses it. I have found almost no support at all for EAI in POP and IMAP. The only open source is Courier IMAP, and the commercial ones with EAI extensions I've tried are really buggy, to the point of repeatedly requiring that I patch the python IMAP library to keep it from crashing during the tests. IMAP already has overcomplex but usable support for multiple character sets in folder names and search terms, and I have found that more often than not non-EAI IMAP servers such as Dovecot work adequately with EAI mail sort of by accident because they don't try to enforce 7-bit ASCII in their 8-bit data. So anyway, I expect that EAI and ASCII mail will coexist for a long time even though there is no downgrade path to smooth the way. The A-labels are just a symptom of that. R's, John
- [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people ref… John R. Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Jiankang Yao
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Ned Freed
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Sam Varshavchik
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Dave Crocker
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John C Klensin
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… John Levine
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Valdis Kl ē tnieks
- Re: [ietf-smtp] Should we update an RFC if people… Viktor Dukhovni