Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requirement in RFC 5321

Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Sun, 27 September 2020 16:40 UTC

Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf-smtp@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf-smtp@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296493A102F for <ietf-smtp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 09:40:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.109
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o-fN0tEbHrmi for <ietf-smtp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 09:40:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11F233A0DFF for <ietf-smtp@ietf.org>; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 09:40:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F7B746; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 12:40:47 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 27 Sep 2020 12:40:47 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=A61gH1me/UqEwKepjvMcnUQnrKosWvd6JWUEJH68c I0=; b=dLlwvBFwpD+Ijyp4pL5rkC87NcZdMisJbwd3jZm4x3HnISwkLvWx7eTrZ pzShzO5MFViXOLNrex9SY984mtzzhwLj1jkipkpkbuCt1jypwiNZu7rkWhK/SelV YJfoe5v07HLBSbApu+EHrDFOCl+AlrKXVAg2XQ4u7ltX2JZU9BwOnjsA1mEXJV0N kB+SdcqMRSv4PC/CJ3kacUnDO0MTMRKocTfFP5q1+3RIUoHRnUAaAiF2pYyYWXf3 ftPdWFK4C48sQNn4DKkK4FKhmSGwuT78XgIpX/BmdYM10rFARI4h2A958A+Y0VYG eP0pI7CtF5pVAMLLfBOUTBvcxGP7Q==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:jsBwXyI33PekR5dw37UWCLXhspn6RyQGzXyPUWhAmEhxXiKZ4D3RQQ> <xme:jsBwX6IhmvmIw4xzZVhQ2MaefmesRk8mTHqIdGnZEPj9BC8B27X62Iur6fqRj2f3c gxwr2Hq53ADgA>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrvdeggddutdehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihht hhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedtheefgfefgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeef leelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:jsBwXys2kDWqq4UBDFqFagYnl-J6aMU_OrzR_waOvqCFFvYLv_De-w> <xmx:jsBwX3Yemd1QgscbHZ_aIQus62nixgS53ZN6rlNRB9Ug5Z392CmwRQ> <xmx:jsBwX5bAm5DAZMTswT7g0jYT5KT-heXUgtwpxODMKzGxyb-JRr2gaQ> <xmx:jsBwX70m8NFh-TkrLjHEYK9zxepXWX0aqEG1I1Qfx7Gb0cUIyom_bg>
Received: from [192.168.1.85] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id ED735328005D; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 12:40:45 -0400 (EDT)
To: dcrocker@bbiw.net, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, ietf-smtp@ietf.org
References: <20200927052221.E0A1A21D3A2D@ary.qy> <198daf90-b3dd-de01-88a0-e9d961feddda@network-heretics.com> <9ad77523-9c98-2249-d01c-80ecc6a96fa@taugh.com> <5e0239fb-9511-c8ae-e4a4-62b9caa2c861@network-heretics.com> <46d012a7-f938-741b-95dc-23d37a26cb39@taugh.com> <0dfb3265-e918-8d90-7dd2-1fcdf2b643fa@network-heretics.com> <22b3d9d6-1f88-2b84-f260-8aa864a232ce@dcrocker.net>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Message-ID: <257653f8-a3e0-3ff0-6afb-89b22c36f4ad@network-heretics.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 12:40:45 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <22b3d9d6-1f88-2b84-f260-8aa864a232ce@dcrocker.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-smtp/bq0XRa_WzZVhwFicsPijNETA0Rk>
Subject: Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requirement in RFC 5321
X-BeenThere: ietf-smtp@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of issues related to Simple Mail Transfer Protocol \(SMTP\) \[RFC 821, RFC 2821, RFC 5321\]" <ietf-smtp.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf-smtp>, <mailto:ietf-smtp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-smtp/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-smtp@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-smtp-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-smtp>, <mailto:ietf-smtp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 16:40:49 -0000

On 9/27/20 12:31 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:

> Exactly how much experience do you have with the real-world practices 
> of the real-world anti-abuse industry?
>
It has cost me tens of thousands of dollars, and those are the cases I 
know about.

I see all the time that ordinary people cannot send mail reliably.   I 
understand that spam filtering is a daunting problem, but don't talk to 
me about legitimacy when the practices harm ordinary users' ability to 
use email.

Keith