Re: Concerns about Singapore
Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com> Mon, 11 April 2016 12:17 UTC
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Subject: Re: Concerns about Singapore
From: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <20160411104519.GA19092@gsp.org>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 15:17:39 +0300
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To: Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org>
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> On 11 Apr 2016, at 1:45 PM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 08:05:19AM +0000, Andrew Allen wrote: >> We could be left with the only possible venue being a cruise ship >> sailing in international waters - [snip] > > There is another alternative -- one I've raised repeatedly. > > Don't have physical meetings. Then this entire problem space simply > vanishes, along with the need for a discusion thread that's now over a > hundred messages. (And it's not the first one.) YES, it's replaced by a > different problem space, which roughly works out to "how can everything > be done virtually?" but given that this is the *Internet* engineering > task force I have no doubt that the collective expertise is more than > capable of dealing with that. I don’t believe that this technology exists. People have been singing the praise of Meetecho in IETF 95, and yet remote participation is nothing like being in the room. And the “virtual interim” meetings are nothing like physical meetings. There is a reason why airlines make great money from business travel and don’t shut down for the winter. > Particularly if all the discussion, effort, > and expense going into the logistics of physical meetings is redirected > into virtual ones instead. Yeah, perhaps, some day when we’re all wearing virtual reality headsets and our avatars are hanging out in a virtual venue, and we all have sufficient equipment and bandwidth to handle all that. We’re not there yet. > I really can't take any of the platitudes about "inclusion" seriously > until that happens -- because as long as the IETF persists with physical > meetings, most people *will* be excluded due to cost, distance, time, > legal climate, personal safety, etc. The IETF is, even if accidentally, > selecting for the elite few who are fortunate enough to be attend. Virtual meetings with the technology we have today makes it very hard for people with mediocre English to follow the discussion. The “I don’t quite follow what you’re saying” look does not translate well to the kind of video we can use today. That extends even to people with relatively good English (for non-native speakers) like me. Yoav
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Bert Wijnen (IETF)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: Concerns about Singapore nalini.elkins
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Jari Arkko
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dirk-Willem van Gulik
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Paul Wouters
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Patrik Fältström
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: China Jeffrey Haas
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stefan Winter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Ray Pelletier
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: China Scott Bradner
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: China Tim Chown
- Re: China Ray Pelletier
- Re: China Mary Barnes
- Re: SV: Concerns about Singapore Martin Rex
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: China HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore David Morris
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: China Melinda Shore
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John G. Scudder
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: China JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: China Ray Pelletier
- Re: China Stewart Bryant
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore joel jaeggli
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Warren Kumari
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore nalini.elkins
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places John Levine
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Robert Withers
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Vinayak Hegde
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- RE: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Hutton, Andrew
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stephen Farrell
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Richard Shockey
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
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- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Ted Lemon
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- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Mark Andrews
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Miles Fidelman
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singapore) Tim Chown
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Loa Andersson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Loa Andersson
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Ted Lemon
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Alia Atlas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Tim Chown
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Ted Lemon
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- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
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- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Andy Bierman
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- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places John R Levine
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- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore an… Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Tony Finch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places tom p.
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Yoav Nir
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Loa Andersson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jeffrey Haas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Brian E Carpenter