Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-12.txt> (Guidelines for Writing an IANA Considerations Section in RFCs) to Best Current Practice
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sun, 05 June 2016 12:25 UTC
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Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2016 08:25:06 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Subject: Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-12.txt> (Guidelines for Writing an IANA Considerations Section in RFCs) to Best Current Practice
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--On Saturday, June 04, 2016 11:35 +1200 Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >... > Disagree. Misleading pointers on the IANA site will mislead > some junior programmer sometime in the future, by a simple > application of Murphy's law. > >> IANA pointers to the old doc should turn up "obsoleted by" >> notices. That ought to be enough to trigger the user to >> follow the right path. > > That's not realistic. If IANA refers to RFC822, and the > programmer has a copy of RFC822 on her disk, that's what she > will follow, because RFC text never changes and does not say > "I am obsolete". Fairly arbitrarily choosing Brian's message to which to respond, I see this a little differently. I think the fundamentals of the disagreement between Stephen and Barry are surrogates for the long-standing one of what we mean by "obsolete" and "obsoletes". We have a shortage of clear definitions, the only thing 2026 says is in Section 4.2.4, which clearly links "obsolete" (and hence, presumably, "obsoleted") to Historic status. It even implies that classification is automatic, which is certainly not current practice. It seems to me that we should be citing obsolete documents only for historical purposes. If a parameter value is still in active use, then the most recent definition should be cited for multiple reasons. Brian's example is certainly one of them, but the whole idea of a normative dependency (and pointers to definitions from IANA registries are, in most cases (see below), certainly that) to part of an obsolete document should just not be acceptable. This is not "make work", it is running a standards and parameter registry system professionally and for maximum utility by the use audience. I think I'm agreeing with Barry and Ben about this. And, especially when the RFCs contain information that is not in the registry (see below), I'm someone else who has quite often tracked down RFCs by starting from the registries. Those who want to avoid the burden of updating registries should be more careful about listing documents as obsolete rather than updating them. "Obsoletes all material in RFCxxxx except for the parameter registry value discussion in Sections N and M" should be an easy statement to make. If it is not, that document is probably badly organized and the community would benefit from an updated reference to an updated document. The other issue is that there are two kinds of "reference" pointers from IANA registries even though IANA has, AFAIK, never explicitly made the distinction. In one case, the registry is self-contained and the reference provides "where did this come from" or "what authorized this" information. In that case, the user of the registry should not need (or want) to consult an RFC except as part of historical research and reference to the document that actually created (or most recently changed) the registry entry is probably the correct one. In the other case, the reference is actually to information that actually provides a definition of, or important information about, the parameter value. In that case, the pointer should be up to date (and should not point to anything Obsoleted or Historic). As I read this thread (circa 23 messages at the time of this writing), it seems to me that different assumptions about what a pointer from a registry means underlie parts of the disagreement. If that is really the case, the fix is to adjust the registries so that each one is clear about what the pointers mean, rather than trying to water text down enough to accommodate both cases. john
- RE: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Adrian Farrel
- RE: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Joe Touch
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Scott Bradner
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Donald Eastlake
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… S Moonesamy
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Joe Touch
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Joe Touch
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Gmail
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Ben Campbell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Ben Campbell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Gmail
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Joe Touch
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… tom p.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Joe Touch
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Sean Turner
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Sean Turner
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-leiba-cotton-iana-5226bis-1… Martin Rex