Re: Quality of Directorate reviews
Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Fri, 29 November 2019 21:54 UTC
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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 08:54:14 +1100
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References: <CADnDZ89At83GGr8pUb8QfEvaeXN8qQ=XmjtJt5QeDcYm96fPUg@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: alexey.melnikov@isode.com, ietf <ietf@ietf.org>, rwilton@cisco.com, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
In-Reply-To: <CADnDZ89At83GGr8pUb8QfEvaeXN8qQ=XmjtJt5QeDcYm96fPUg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
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There is a lot of evidence that a culture of blame leads to bad engineering outcomes. John Allspaw wrote something about this a while back: https://codeascraft.com/2012/05/22/blameless-postmortems/ I think it’d be better for this community to be focused less on blame and more on becoming what John refers to as a just culture. Cheers, Sent from my iPhone > On 30 Nov 2019, at 5:30 am, Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Alex and Ralph, > > The quality will never increase if authors are not answering positively to discussions in their WG, however, I always blame first WG-authors and second WG chair and then thirdly the AD, for low quality of discussions/drafts/works. > > > From: ietf <ietf-bounces@ietf.org>; On Behalf Of Ralph Droms > > Sent: 06 November 2019 11:03 > > To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>; > > Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>;; ietf <ietf@ietf.org>; > > Subject: Re: Quality of Directorate reviews > > > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>; > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Michael, > > > > > > On 05/11/2019 21:50, Michael Richardson wrote: > > >> > > >> Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; wrote: > > >>> If we want the IESG job to be more reasonably sized, we have to take > > >>> work away from the ADs. > > I agree > > >>>>As far as I can see, that means taking away > > >>> their duty of acting as final reviewers. I don't want to name names > > >>> because I don't think the ADs are to be blamed individually, but > > >>> some of them spend *enormous* effort on detailed reviews. > > > The WG Chair/manager is blamed, they need to encourage discussions/works and deep investigation before submitting drafts to AD. The WG Chair should push WG and authors for best reviews and cooperation. > > > > >> > > >> +1 > > >> > > >> I think that there is a lack of trust by ADs of the various > > directorates. > > > > > > Other ADs have commented on this, but I think I need to repeat what > > > they said and expand on it. > > > > > > Results are vary varied. Some are quite good (e.g. Gen-Art) and others > > > really depend on reviewer. ADs responsible for Directorates are faces > > > with the choice of firing half of their Directorates (which has some > > > rather unfortunate consequences) and/or raise the bar on who should be > > > allowed to join. We already struggle to recruit people at all levels > > > of our organization. > > > It is easy to know when the draft is ready, YOU just check if there was many discussions on the WG list, if non then send it back to WG to work. > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > Alexey > > > > We shouldn't be depending on last-minute quality checks to maintain the > > quality of our output. > > Agree > > >Working groups should be producing documents that > > are ready to publish, and develop trust that their documents are high > > quality. > > Agree, the authors need to answer all questions on the list as if all participants are ADs. WG authors reply differently with AD than with WG participant, this needs to change. > > AB
- NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback NomCom Chair 2019
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stewart Bryant
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kyle Rose
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Paul Wouters
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Livingood, Jason
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Randy Bush
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Yoav Nir
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stephen Farrell
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Brian E Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stephen Farrell
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Brian E Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kyle Rose
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Tim Wicinski
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Rob Sayre
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Bob Hinden
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Donald Eastlake
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback John Levine
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Stewart Bryant
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Michael Richardson
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Kyle Rose
- AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Communi… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Mark Nottingham
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Rob Sayre
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Terry Manderson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Quality of Directorate reviews Alexey Melnikov
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Ralph Droms
- RE: Quality of Directorate reviews Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Alexey Melnikov
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- RE: Quality of Directorate reviews Paul Wouters
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Carsten Bormann
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Ralph Droms
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Ralph Droms
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Bob Hinden
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Bob Hinden
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Salz, Rich
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Bob Hinden
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Jared Mauch
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Salz, Rich
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Leif Johansson
- Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorate re… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Leif Johansson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… tom petch
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Stewart Bryant
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Salz, Rich
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Nico Williams
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Christian Huitema
- Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: Thou… Jari Arkko
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Keith Moore
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Eliot Lear
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Ole Troan
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … John C Klensin
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Salz, Rich
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Michael Richardson
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Andrew G. Malis
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Bob Hinden
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Keith Moore
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Michael Richardson
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback John Leslie
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Michael Richardson
- Re: AD workload [was Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Com… Keith Moore
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2019 Call for Community Feedback Mary B
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Carsten Bormann
- Re: Author and attendance measurements [Was: Re: … Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Julian Reschke
- Re: Thought experiment [Re: Quality of Directorat… Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Keith Moore
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Michael Richardson
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Quality of Directorate reviews Mark Nottingham