Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate November meeting to saving the Internet from the NSA
Adam Novak <interfect@gmail.com> Fri, 06 September 2013 17:30 UTC
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From: Adam Novak <interfect@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2013 10:29:48 -0700
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Subject: Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate November meeting to saving the Internet from the NSA
To: Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
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You're right that a flat mesh is not the best topology for long-distance communication, especially with current routing protocols, which require things like global lists of all routeable prefixes. On the protocol front, I suggest that the IETF develop routing protocols that can work well in a flat mesh topology. Parallelizing traffic streams over many available routes, so it all doesn't try to take the shortest path, would appear to be a particularly important feature, as would preventing all of a node's links from being swamped by through traffic that other nodes want it to route. The problem with long-distance traffic over flat mesh networks is less with throughput (if everything isn't taking the shortest path) than with the latencies involved in sending traffic over a very large number of hops. I think the solution there is to send traffic that's leaving your local area over the existing (tapable) long-distance infrastructure. The idea is to make tapping expensive, not impossible. There's also the point to be made that current traffic patterns depend to a significant extent on current Internet architectural decisions. If everyone had a gigabit connection to their neighbors, but only a 10 megabit uplink to route long-distance traffic over, they might find a use for all that extra local bandwidth. On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 7:22 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote: > > One way to frustrate this sort of dragnet surveillance would be to > > reduce centralization in the Internet's architecture. > > ... > > [If] The IETF focused on developing protocols (and reserving the > > necessary network numbers) to facilitate direct network peering between > > private individuals, it could make it much more expensive to mount > > large-scale traffic interception attacks. > > I'm not sure this is viable (although it's an interesting concept). > > With our current routing tools, switching to a flat mesh, as opposed to the > current fairly-structured system, would require enormous amounts of > configuration/etc work on the part of smaller entities. > > Also, traffic patterns being what they are (e.g. most of my traffic goes > quite a distance, and hardly any to things close by), everyone would wind up > handling a lot of 'through' traffic - orders of magnitude more than their > current traffic load. > > Noel
- Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate November me… Dean Willis
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Martin Millnert
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Lucy Lynch
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… cb.list6
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Melinda Shore
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Vinayak Hegde
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Vinayak Hegde
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Randy Bush
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Melinda Shore
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Jari Arkko
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Eliot Lear
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Jari Arkko
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… SM
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Adam Novak
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… t.p.
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Vinayak Hegde
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Jorge Amodio
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Alan Johnston
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Martin Sustrik
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Eliot Lear
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Pete Resnick
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Scott Brim
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… John C Klensin
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Tony Finch
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Stefan Winter
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Pete Resnick
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Joe Abley
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Scott Brim
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… John C Klensin
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Brian Trammell
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Pete Resnick
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Scott Brim
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… John C Klensin
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… John C Klensin
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… SM
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Tony Finch
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Arturo Servin
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Michael Richardson
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Adam Novak
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dean Willis
- RE: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… George, Wes
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dean Willis
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Keith Moore
- Teachable moment Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… SM
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… David Conrad
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Tim Bray
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… David Morris
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Scott Brim
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… SM
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Jorge Amodio
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… ned+ietf
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Equably when it comes to privacy SM
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Jorge Amodio
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Scott Kitterman
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy SM
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy joel jaeggli
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Janet P Gunn
- RE: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… l.wood
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… John C Klensin
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy SM
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy joel jaeggli
- RE: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… l.wood
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ross Finlayson
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Eliot Lear
- Re: Teachable moment Jari Arkko
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Erik Nordmark
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Tobias Gondrom
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Tobias Gondrom
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker