Re: Concerns about Singapore
Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> Tue, 12 April 2016 04:28 UTC
Return-Path: <harald@alvestrand.no>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53E612E1E9 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 21:28:22 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.896
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.996] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OZK5UtpNbksw for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 21:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2::117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C9AF12E1E4 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 11 Apr 2016 21:28:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABDE7C7CCF for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 06:28:18 +0200 (CEST)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no
Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TFtr2W1aOVZs for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 06:28:16 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:1:34fd:aec1:692d:e316] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:1:34fd:aec1:692d:e316]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 905B67C7CCE for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 12 Apr 2016 06:28:16 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Re: Concerns about Singapore
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <0D914666-C3D4-4CCE-AD5E-4E5B34EA1A73@piuha.net> <20160407182936.GA21340@pfrc.org> <CAB75xn780nNDjGa_Cc222J20-+1CCHt09Xp8KHzaK=n0xx51pg@mail.gmail.com> <5706B100.9040509@mnt.se> <CAB75xn6fmj84ROUtG5eUB3GerHx83hrEr3w5vSADY_g=BRg5FA@mail.gmail.com> <5706BA40.3060005@mnt.se> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1604072157240.31096@uplift.swm.pp.se> <A9B63A6D-3102-482F-8FFC-2E57A5FD8336@nic.cz> <16925.1460122349@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <m27fg77zst.wl%randy@psg.com> <57097077.7040703@comcast.net> <m2fuuu75ls.wl%randy@psg.com> <87wpo5a8im.fsf@tops.chopps.org> <m260vp7eke.wl%randy@psg.com> <570A6458.3050206@comcast.net> <m21t6d7c9t.wl%randy@psg.com> <570A67B4.3010206@comcast.net> <570AB3AF.2050401@gmail.com> <87twj99c6w.fsf@tops.chopps.org> <CAKe6YvMyp-DyeDwpPY6KYmbDbnpgnvVk_cUStnA32wmgDWcz3w@mail.gmail.com> <BBF5DDFE515C3946BC18D733B20DAD233A62AA18@XMB122CNC.rim.net>
From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110
Message-ID: <570C7960.50803@alvestrand.no>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 06:28:16 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <BBF5DDFE515C3946BC18D733B20DAD233A62AA18@XMB122CNC.rim.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/2gXBlYEUp_m5H0HVxtFr8RdOGh4>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2016 04:28:23 -0000
The IETF is not a value-neutral organization. Since we're citing the Mission Statement RFC here, it also contains: > The Internet isn't value-neutral, and neither is the IETF. We want > the Internet to be useful for communities that share our commitment > to openness and fairness. We embrace technical concepts such as > decentralized control, edge-user empowerment and sharing of > resources, because those concepts resonate with the core values of > the IETF community. These concepts have little to do with the > technology that's possible, and much to do with the technology that > we choose to create. That said - after doing my amateur research on the whole Singapore thing, I'm willing to live with whatever resolution of the issue the IAOC comes up with. It's not an open-and-shut "stay away" thing; I regard the first IETF to be held inside the Great Firewall as a more clearly problematic decision - but, in retrospect, agree with it. My unhappiness with the IAOC's handling (pre-plenary) is mainly that they were surprised that this concern needs considering. Den 11. april 2016 10:05, skrev Andrew Allen: > This is what I mean by slippery slope - once we go down this path it never ends - in a global community of well over 1000 active people at least one person is likely to have a problem with some aspect of most of the countries governments, policies, cultures or actions, etc. > > We could be left with the only possible venue being a cruise ship sailing in international waters - but then someone will probably object because the ship is registered in Panama or Liberia! > > The focus should be on choosing a location for the meeting that is open for all to attend and where it is reasonably safe to attend and meets the needs of a meeting for a large number of people and represents the regional balance of the membership. > > The mission of the IETF is to make the Internet work better by producing high quality, relevant technical documents that influence the way people design, use, and manage the Internet. > > The IETF is not an organization that's mission is to be an advocate for global social, environmental or political change. The selection of a meeting location should be for the purposes of advancing the IETF's mission. I think some of the concerns raised about Singapore need to be addressed in terms of the practical impact and risk to the attendance of some in the IETF community but we shouldn’t start down the road of choosing or not choosing meeting locations based on an evaluation of a countries laws, culture and policies and whether those are acceptable to all or most of the community. > > Debates over whether a location is politically or morally acceptable will only distract from the mission of the IETF and likely divide the community rather than help in making progress towards forming consensus on the future development of the internet. > > Andrew > > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Vinayak Hegde > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 10:24 PM > To: chopps@chopps.org > Cc: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: Concerns about Singapore > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 6:46 AM, <chopps@chopps.org> wrote: >> It's certainly relevant to me, b/c I don't personally think that IETF >> meetings should be held in oppressive and censoring countries. I don't >> know how to articulate this well -- others are better at it -- but I >> certainly would like to skip any meetings that I feel violate IETFs >> value of openness so that I can at least vote with my feet and my >> dollars. > > Well how does this work with Internet's (and IETF's) mission of inclusiveness. Applying the same scale of "oppressiveness", I am sure large parts of the world think the same about the US/UK which has waged wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Syria, Argentina (our latest venue) and elsewhere. > > The IETF doesn't seem to have a problem having meetings in these countries. I hope the majority of participants on this list realise that they are viewing the world through a western prism. > > The notion of punishing the general populace for the mistakes of their elected and unelected govt. seems wrong to me. Many times, the general populace of the country is fighting their govt. through the Internet. eg. Turkey. > > -- Vinayak >
- Concerns about Singapore Jari Arkko
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Adam Roach
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jeffrey Haas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Donald Eastlake
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: Concerns about Singapore David Conrad
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Laurent Ciavaglia
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Laurent Ciavaglia
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Bert Wijnen (IETF)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- A distinction along Pete's dimensions (was: Re: C… John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Dave Crocker
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Christian Hopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: Concerns about Singapore nalini.elkins
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Jari Arkko
- China Ole Jacobsen
- SV: Concerns about Singapore Anne-Marie Eklund-Löwinder
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dirk-Willem van Gulik
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Paul Wouters
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Patrik Fältström
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: China Jeffrey Haas
- Re: China Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stefan Winter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: China Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Toerless Eckert (eckert)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: A distinction along Pete's dimensions Ray Pelletier
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: China Scott Bradner
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: China Tim Chown
- Re: China Ray Pelletier
- Re: China Mary Barnes
- Re: SV: Concerns about Singapore Martin Rex
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: China HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore David Morris
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: China Melinda Shore
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: China Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael Richardson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John G. Scudder
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Follow-ups: Concerns about Singapore Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harish Pillay
- Re: China JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: China Ray Pelletier
- Re: China Stewart Bryant
- Re: China Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore joel jaeggli
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Patrik Fältström
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Warren Kumari
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Leif Johansson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore nalini.elkins
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Randy Bush
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places John Levine
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Michael StJohns
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Robert Withers
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Vinayak Hegde
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- RE: Concerns about Singapore Andrew Allen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Hutton, Andrew
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stephen Farrell
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore John C Klensin
- Virtual Meetings John Leslie
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Yoav Nir
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stewart Bryant
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dave Crocker
- Re: Concerns about Singapore chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Richard Shockey
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concerns ab… Stephen Farrell
- Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Singapo… chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… David Farmer
- Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore lloyd.wood
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore George Michaelson
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Mark Andrews
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Miles Fidelman
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Jared Mauch
- Re: 1000 person virtual meeting (Was: Re: Concern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Mikael Abrahamsson
- Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singapore) Tim Chown
- Re: Meetecho was Re: Concerns about Singapore Tim Chown
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Loa Andersson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Loa Andersson
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Ted Lemon
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Alia Atlas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Tim Chown
- Re: Virtual IETFs (was: Re: Concerns about Singap… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Mary Barnes
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Christian Hopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Dhruv Dhody
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Miles Fidelman
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… chopps
- Re: Concerns about Singapore HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Melinda Shore
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Stewart Bryant
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Andy Bierman
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places John R Levine
- UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore and ot… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore an… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Alia Atlas
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: UK blacklist (Re: Concerns about Singapore an… Tim Chown
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places Tony Finch
- Re: Concerns about Singapore and other places tom p.
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Yoav Nir
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Loa Andersson
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Rich Kulawiec
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Jeffrey Haas
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Ted Lemon
- Re: Concerns about Singapore Theodore V Faber
- Re: Remote only meetings? [Re: Concerns about Sin… Brian E Carpenter