Excessive use of interim meetings
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Sun, 16 February 2020 12:29 UTC
Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A007F120116 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 04:29:48 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8yhE_7jmyGl6 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 04:29:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C9A0120113 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 04:29:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0085E2; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 07:29:45 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 16 Feb 2020 07:29:45 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=d18FMB85NzJ1FEPd5BxIMhWpQ81CndpFXp//tTvwH Ns=; b=N7oVoaevwl6HKkV+2FKzVDai/funTd2d0+A7aiemq84ECvYmzHnWzEe6U O+3DpQQrRxqSuUJlQ06wp9SVd/WQkRam5M0yvfSfWX2YHbtEpfZr1UjXE3WnhFUp SM3/cJ37x7Z+By4kQoWu4FNrxwFEG/n9dTxz2fbSkDQX8n5J4rzZnRvtOWVd9pYb NmQkx5L/cOAs0GBsgMZXnbNCj2oN3Nmy+jzJSUneZ7AEg2yvDCkBRjPULoI2Iqvc uGYHxLlN3eaMdPT0tXwQJoWusA+dK4owUr/xmKk7aHlFayFziOb8oPSAvCm6go2+ 7RzUVwkT54/Q9RshF36/RRgZNhkfw==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:uDVJXuOGcti-puH1GyfTxmEhLndp00tWgWKqFSXexNK8oiOznzJ4zg>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrjeeggdegtdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrdduhe enucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohho rhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:uDVJXqcQB3GgPof9UuThDNjajJErIF70_6Z2Qy-SRJyZrn50epellw> <xmx:uDVJXhU3Ya8Bg2jV9Pfl03YO_lckgQIWio_n7NzJswZdlx4_L1krVw> <xmx:uDVJXr85rp_Qc5jyhSlFHiZrAREASbuc31MitZbd4BA5HRpneq6lLA> <xmx:uDVJXgoQF6u1zvsuBDdtxJEk9qBbgpGDTunHJXi8NwlVcy6GgXsOyA>
Received: from [192.168.1.97] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2D03A3280063; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 07:29:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Excessive use of interim meetings
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D91338@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Message-ID: <a85b45cf-bc11-75f8-780a-f121150f08b4@network-heretics.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 07:29:43 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D91338@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/2hVWdgALdyEIACfDxE-dnK7igWI>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 12:29:49 -0000
On 2/16/20 2:37 AM, Roni Even (A) wrote: > My personal experience when trying to attend a QUIC WG Interim meeting in Japan was very bad. Not to single out QUIC, but I've formed the opinion that some WGs are making excessive use of interim meetings (whether face-to-face or virtual) in preference to email. Part of the purpose of using email for discussion (and insisting that consensus be reached over email) was to permit effective participation from anywhere, and thus, to encourage diversity among participants. We recognize that occasional face-to-face meetings are very helpful, but interim face-to-face meetings thwart this long-established effort to encourage diversity. Even virtual interim meetings have this effect due to the difficult of participating from very remote time zones. (Sure you have to deal with jet lag if you physically travel. But it's easier to deal with jet lag if you actually travel to the location because you are surrounded by people and services that reinforce the local time zone.) I will freely admit that it has become more difficult over time to have effective discussions over email. Part of the problem seems to be that so many people read email from mobile devices with small screens. Perhaps for this reason, it seems that email readers today often have short attention spans. Another part of the problem seems to be that modern email user agents (including webmail user agents) are actually less effective at facilitating discussion of deep technical subjects than was the case 20 years ago. In particular the reply style of quoting the subject message in the reply, with comments interspersed, which was once very effective at least for a few replies, seems to be discouraged by modern email user agents. I don't claim to know what the best answer is but I am concerned that IETF is losing its center. The fundamental means of participation in IETF used to be email. Interim meetings have always been somewhat problematic if not used sparingly. I've certainly seen them used as part of a deliberate effort to reduce diversity of participation. Keith
- RE: IETF 107 and Corona Virus? - timezone Roni Even (A)
- Re: IETF 107 and Corona Virus? - timezone Stewart Bryant
- Excessive use of interim meetings Keith Moore
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings Phillip Hallam-Baker
- RE: IETF 107 and Corona Virus? - timezone John C Klensin
- Re: IETF 107 and Corona Virus? - timezone Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IETF 107 and Corona Virus? - timezone John C Klensin
- Re: IETF 107 and Corona Virus? - timezone avri doria
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings Mark Andrews
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings Keith Moore
- RE: IETF 107 and Corona Virus? - timezone Ron Bonica
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings John C Klensin
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings Rob Sayre
- Re: IETF 107 and Corona Virus? - timezone Christian Huitema
- RE: IETF 107 and Corona Virus? - timezone Roni Even (A)
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings Keith Moore
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings Nico Williams
- Scaling the IETF (Re: Excessive use of interim me… Nico Williams
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings John C Klensin
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Excessive use of interim meetings John C Klensin