RE: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your comments onrevised proposed legend text to work-around the Pre-5378 Problem
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sat, 24 January 2009 15:33 UTC
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 10:33:25 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Dave Nelson <d.b.nelson@comcast.net>, 'Trustees' <trustees@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your comments onrevised proposed legend text to work-around the Pre-5378 Problem
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--On Saturday, January 24, 2009 10:07 -0500 Dave Nelson <d.b.nelson@comcast.net> wrote: > John C. Klensin writes ... > >> And, while IANAL, my understanding from what we've been told >> repeatedly is that "fair use exemption" is a US concept, so >> your sentence should stop after "significant re-use of >> material" > > So authors of scholarly papers in other countries can't > lawfully quote and cite other such works? I am continually > surprised by new knowledge -- that makes life interesting -- > but I find this bit particularly surprising, not to say > incredible. The point is that different countries have different rules, different names for the rules, and different criteria. To pick up on your example, some even have special rules for scholarly papers. I gather others focus on context and intent with less concern about volume. "Fair use", at least as it gets thrown around the IETF, is typically a reference to a US-specific story. Beyond that, you should probably consult your favorite lawyer. > If "fair use" does not apply, then does "significant" need to > be come "any"? One of the elements of fair use is the volume > of quoted material -- so what now defines "significant"? If it comes to that, a judge. After the fact and on a case-by-case basis. With the understanding that this takes us into exactly the part of the room that I think has no floor, if you want to infer that removing a more-or-less clear "fair use" criterion turns "significant" into "any", you are free to do so. I couldn't possibly say that. On the other hand, if one avoids the legal theorizing and concentrates on the issue, there are, IMO, two important things to focus on: * The current and former policies focus on getting people to give the IETF (and IETF Trust) whatever rights they need, not on making would-be users of text spend energy trying to figure out what they can and cannot appropriate without those rights. If a subsequent author knows that she has the rights by a more or less explicit grant, what could be used without them is a non-issue. In that regard, the difference between 5378 and 3978 is that 5378 considerably broadened the set of rights the IETF requires that it obtain. * This debate, and the workaround, are really about what rights I have to claim that I have, or have obtained, to give to the IETF. The workaround and whatever corner it gets us into avoid requiring a document author to take responsibility either for gathering new permissions from people who may be inaccessible or for accurately determining who might consider themselves a significant enough contributor to a document to be relevant for copyright purposes. john _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- RE: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… John C Klensin
- ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your comme… Ed Juskevicius
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… John C Klensin
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Simon Josefsson
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Scott Brim
- RE: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Contreras, Jorge
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Paul Hoffman
- Document posting schedule pragmatics (was: Re: AN… John C Klensin
- RE: Document posting schedule pragmatics (was: Re… Ed Juskevicius
- RE: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Dave Nelson
- RE: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… John C Klensin
- RE: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Dave Nelson
- RE: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… John C Klensin
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… John Levine
- RE: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Dave Nelson
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Doug Ewell
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Paul Hoffman
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Dave CROCKER
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Theodore Tso
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… John C Klensin
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Ken Raeburn
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Sam Hartman
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Paul Hoffman
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Dave CROCKER
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… John C Klensin
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… SM
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Stephen Farrell
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Dean Willis
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… Dean Willis
- Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your c… John C Klensin