Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev
Michael StJohns <mstjohns@comcast.net> Tue, 23 April 2019 03:33 UTC
Return-Path: <mstjohns@comcast.net>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE0F120136 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:33:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.698
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.net
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QXdSwOc5Tyiv for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:33:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from resqmta-po-07v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-07v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:166]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1B5F120075 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:33:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from resomta-po-16v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.240]) by resqmta-po-07v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id IlyghQe2Be39RImB2hl6XV; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 03:33:00 +0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=20190202a; t=1555990380; bh=psDa/QhXcdcmnbnlFtG+hu1qjBXXx6QEp3D3GfYHGmg=; h=Received:Received:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=DJKyWT4x0tE1KhQbMdM9D75XuZMxoEh8ra+D+u3foLYJQep/MMThmCjanxZ1Wp0r+ Km4cZWaQky93xH1ZQOQPnEN9opjk8mnLFajnKAeSPDS0C1MBRZM0Y/gsZtGoJ1Hvuf Xc7oAEA0URIIvKGwH9WmUNe7oAiR2AwJTJpChhzHgIWgJH4Yvix6UlKLY+o3vP49PV P+yU8lIJi/r387GqaHwy4Q+fUkd1d8nPtoVNDwUpkNuWBmgWHFpwyWVZC2LKTkcUIi BIdCsl8GkuRYt/vWRC5I7JjrzJDWC02aX8b1odfSQ1sRlYDwmjyr8kasbjq/aQRHpz rJnNPXqeMpx9w==
Received: from [IPv6:2601:152:4400:437c:ac6d:adcb:e959:c9f0] ([IPv6:2601:152:4400:437c:ac6d:adcb:e959:c9f0]) by resomta-po-16v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPSA id ImB0h7Lhf12HVImB1hwKaM; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 03:32:59 +0000
X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=-100;st=legit
Subject: Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: IETF list <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <6.2.5.6.2.20190405085139.0d5c39b0@elandnews.com> <54510B49-175B-4CE6-9319-1F9A4803940E@cooperw.in> <033d01d4f52f$c6f2dca0$54d895e0$@olddog.co.uk> <C7274EAB-7DDC-491F-9DD2-0CFFADB13CA9@cooperw.in> <72f00d0b-7ec6-ba6a-b17b-97879d457ae3@comcast.net> <CAKKJt-fOMMdM-mkbJaYpsH6XPCpatUkwZY-d_A+MaNa3nhaNDg@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBNdaWU4wwOK_MnWC5hOr7Lu3osmC_6_KKxB5fHuHVHyTw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Michael StJohns <mstjohns@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <23d54797-5c94-aa00-ec55-3f2c4fdfcfae@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 23:32:58 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBNdaWU4wwOK_MnWC5hOr7Lu3osmC_6_KKxB5fHuHVHyTw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5333252CE1F58C1D128A437A"
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/40Ws0req-wNgMCCdVZVAXaK1_mg>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 03:33:04 -0000
On 4/22/2019 10:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 8:33 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF > <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>> > wrote: > > I'm actually enjoying this more than I should be ... > > <deleted several levels of response> > > The report that design team produced is at > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-dawkins-nomcom-3777-issues-00.txt. > It resulted in most of the updates to RFC 3777 before they were > all obsoleted by https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7437/. > > > Thanks for pointing us to this document. Useful to avoid reinventing > the issues list. > > In that vein, I think it would be useful to get crisp about the > problem statement. It seems to me that this document implicitly makes > two arguments: > > - It's too difficult to initiate a recall (because the threshold > is too high and because members of the leadership who might have > special knowledge are excluded) [S 2.1, 2.3] > > - It's unfair to exclude remote participants [S 2.2] > > I'm not sure how persuaded I am by the second argument, but I think > the overall thrust of the first argument has some merit. However, > I tend to agree with Alissa that the main obstacle isn't so much > the number of people or excluding leadership, but rather the > reputational risk to people of signing the petition, especially > if the recall fails [0]. > > So, if the idea is to make recalls easier, then it seems to me > that the easiest thing to do would be to make the signatures > on the petition anonymous; the Secretariat can still verify them, > of course, and the recall proceedings themselves would still > be conducted in our usual fashion. > > -Ekr > > > [0] "If you come at the king, you best not miss". > [1] It's also possible to build a system that allows third party > verification that the right number of sigantures were provided > while not identifying the signers, but the amount of crypto > required seems somewhat prohibitive. > > The more I listen to this thread, the more I'm thinking that the whole concept of recall as described in the appropriate documents makes little sense for the IETF/IAB as currently constituted. It certainly makes no sense for any of the other entities for which the Nomcom proposes candidates (e.g. the LLC and Trust) for which the appropriate remedies implicate various laws or contractual issues. The ONLY time we've ever come close to running a recall, it was for the IAOC and it was to deal with the fact that we hadn't created procedures to deal with abandonment of a position or disability of a member especially where we had (with one person AWOL from a normal set of 5 members) a potential quorum problem. When the problem occurred, it took only about a day to get 20 members to sign the petition once it was decided to handle it via recall. The member in question ended up resigning quickly enough that the recall committee was not formed. (I think I've got this timing correct...) It would have taken something like 6 weeks or so to get the recall committee up and running and then more time to actually complete the recall, then another 4-6 weeks to fill the spot - call it 2-3 months to fix a problem. Instead, I'd like to propose that we move to an expulsion model for the IAB and IESG where the members of the organizations are able to remove a member under certain circumstances: Behavior inconsistent with a fiduciary (e.g. acting for your company or contracting entity to the detriment of the standards process); behavior that adversely affects the standardization process (IESG) or behavior that adversely affects the general operation of the IAB (e.g. things like harassment); abandonment of the position or lack of communication from the member. 2/3 of the permanent members can vote to remove. For the IETF chair, a majority of both the IESG and IAB (e.g. two groups each with majority approvals) are needed. This would at least be a lot faster to resolve if there is a great enough issue. If we still want to talk about recalls, let's talk about *why* we might want to recall someone? Is there a current or potential (within the next year or so) reasonable scenario that we need to address? Once we figure out what the possible offenses are, we can figure out if recall is the remedy or if we need to think about something else. I'm still puzzled as to why we need to make recalls easier to accomplish and whether there is an actual issue with not allowing remote participants to trigger a petition. Later, Mike
- AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Alissa Cooper
- RE: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Adrian Farrel
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Aaron Falk
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Loganaden Velvindron
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev John C Klensin
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Brian E Carpenter
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev John C Klensin
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev John C Klensin
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Alissa Cooper
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Alissa Cooper
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Michael StJohns
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Michael StJohns
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Scott O. Bradner
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev John C Klensin
- Gaming email [was: AD Sponsorship of draft-moones… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Gaming email [was: AD Sponsorship of draft-mo… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Gaming email [was: AD Sponsorship of draft-mo… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Salz, Rich
- Recall petitions as an attack vector (was: Re: AD… John C Klensin
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Eric Rescorla
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Michael StJohns
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Keith Moore
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Salz, Rich
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Salz, Rich
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Nico Williams
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Andrew G. Malis
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Nico Williams
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Nico Williams
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Dave Taht
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Eric Rescorla
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Eliot Lear
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Salz, Rich
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Salz, Rich
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Joel M. Halpern
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Nico Williams
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Brian E Carpenter
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Keith Moore
- RE: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Adrian Farrel
- RE: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Adrian Farrel
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Stewart Bryant
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Andrew G. Malis
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Nico Williams
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Stewart Bryant
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Nico Williams
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Stewart Bryant
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Nico Williams
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev John C Klensin
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Nico Williams
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Michael StJohns
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev John C Klensin
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Andrew G. Malis
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Andrew Sullivan
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Alissa Cooper
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Alissa Cooper
- RE: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Adrian Farrel
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Michael StJohns
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev 'Andrew Sullivan'
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- RE: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Adrian Farrel
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Suresh Krishnan
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Eric Rescorla
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Eric Rescorla
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Brian E Carpenter
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev John C Klensin
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Suresh Krishnan
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Stephen Farrell
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev John C Klensin
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev S Moonesamy
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Pete Resnick
- Re: AD Sponsorship of draft-moonesamy-recall-rev Theodore Ts'o
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] AD Sponsorship of draft… John C Klensin
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] AD Sponsorship of draft… Loganaden Velvindron
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] AD Sponsorship of draft… Iyedi Goma
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] AD Sponsorship of draft… John C Klensin
- Remote participant fees (was : Re: [Eligibility-d… John C Klensin
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] AD Sponsorship of draft… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] AD Sponsorship of draft… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] AD Sponsorship of draft… Keith Moore
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] AD Sponsorship of draft… Pete Resnick
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] AD Sponsorship of draft… John C Klensin
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] AD Sponsorship of draft… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] AD Sponsorship of draft… Michael StJohns
- ietf meeting fees Keith Moore
- Re: ietf meeting fees Michael StJohns
- Re: ietf meeting fees Brian E Carpenter
- Re: ietf meeting fees Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: ietf meeting fees Bob Hinden
- Re: ietf meeting fees Michael Richardson
- Re: ietf meeting fees John C Klensin
- Re: ietf meeting fees Andrew Sullivan
- Re: ietf meeting fees Livingood, Jason
- Re: ietf meeting fees George Michaelson
- Re: ietf meeting fees Abdussalam Baryun