Re: "why I quit writing internet standards"
Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> Mon, 14 April 2014 16:56 UTC
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References: <CF71721A.180A9%wesley.george@twcable.com> <CAHiKxWjiSHH9nn_CjC-n8Rp4jnwF4X5+Ct+tAad_q+JeG=Qfkw@mail.gmail.com> <CAG4d1rfFKB-8CRbj21ZOrGKps9ctz88m-4=yYYCVmYp3ks1ryg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 09:56:16 -0700
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Subject: Re: "why I quit writing internet standards"
From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
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On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 11:57 AM, David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net> wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 8:08 AM, George, Wes <wesley.george@twcable.com> > wrote: > >> I'm surprised that no one has sent this out yet: > >> http://gigaom.com/2014/04/12/why-i-quit-writing-internet-standards/ > >> > >> "Summary: After contributing to standards organizations for more than > seven > >> years, engineer Vidya Narayanan decided it was time to move on. > Although she > >> still believes that these organizations make the Internet a better > place, > >> she wonders about the pace of change versus the pace of organizations." > >> > >> My thoughts- > >> > >> There are some nuggets of truth in what she says in this article, and in > >> some of the comments. I think that the problems are real, so there's > value > >> in taking the criticism constructively, despite the fact that the author > >> chose to focus on the problems without any suggestions of solutions. > >> > >> "while the pace at which standards are written hasn't changed in many > years, > >> the pace at which the real world adopts software has become orders of > >> magnitude faster." > >> ... > >> "Running code and rough consensus, the motto of the IETF, used to be > >> realizable at some point. ... In the name of consensus, we debate > frivolous > >> details forever. In the name of patents, we never finish." > >> ... > >> "Unless these standards organizations make radical shifts towards > >> practicality, their relevance will soon be questionable." > >> > >> I don't have too many big ideas how to fix these problems, but I'll at > least > >> take a crack at it in order to spur discussion. My paraphrase of the > problem > >> and some discussion follows. > >> > >> - We've lost sight of consensus and are too often derailed by a vocal > >> minority of those willing to endlessly debate a point. > >> > >> Part of the solution to that is reiterating what consensus is and is > not, > >> such as draft-resnick-on-consensus so that we don't confuse a need for > >> consensus with a need for unanimity. Part of the solution is IETF > leadership > >> helping to identify when we have rough consensus encumbered by a debate > that > >> will never resolve itself, without quieting actual disagreement that > needs > >> continued discussion in order to find a compromise. I don't have good > >> suggestions on how to make that second half better. > >> > >> - We don't have nearly enough focus on running code as the thing that > helps > >> to ensure that we're using our limited cycles on getting the right > things > >> out expediently, and either getting the design right the first time, or > >> failing quickly and iterating to improve > >> > >> The solution here may be that we need to be much more aggressive at > >> expecting any standards track documents to have running code much > earlier in > >> the process. The other part of that is to renew our focus on actual > interop > >> standards work, probably by charter or in-group feedback, shift focus > away > >> from BCP and info documents. Perhaps when considering whether to proceed > >> with a given document, we need test as to whether it's actively > >> helpful/needed and ensure that we know what audience would be looking > at it, > >> rather than simply ensuring that it is "not harmful" and mostly within > the > >> WG's chartered focus. > > > > My friend @colin_dixon pointed this out to me yesterday, and I've been > > giving it quite a bit of thought since then (I have a nascent blog on > > the topic of how open source and standards orgs might > > productively/efficiently work together; follow up to > > > http://www.sdncentral.com/education/david-meyer-reflections-opendaylight-open-source-project-brocade/2014/03 > ). > > > > What I can say is that after seeing the kind of progress that several > > open source communities make (they do epitomize the best of the IETF's > > running code/rough consensus ethic), one does have to wonder if > > traditional standards making is either obsolete or in dire need of a > > make over. What is needed, IMO, is a reimagining of how the standards > > process interacts with the open source movement specifically focused > > on how they can compliment one another. > > [Alia] It would be very useful to have a functional model for how the > two can compliment each other. We also tend to talk about open-source > as a single monolith - when it can have very different models for > accepting in changes, how and who runs the community, who is really > participating (open source doesn't mean non-corporate) etc. Some of > what the IETF does is the architecture and requirements thinking about > how the solution should fit in - while some of the open-source is > about getting a solution implemented ASAP. IMHO, a spiral is useful > with an easy way of interaction. With I2RS, as a WG chair, I > suggested having experimental drafts describing solutions that were > being implemented - but haven't seen any. A question is what is > needed to encourage the interactions. > > +1 I was going to mention OpenDaylight as a cooperation model. I think their goal is to provide implementation feedback to the I2RS, NETMOD, and other WGs. The corporate acceptance of open-source software is the key trend. I would not characterize any of these well-funded projects as quick-and-dirty, or "solution implemented ASAP" (any more than every commercial project I've worked on in my career. :-) [Alia] Diversity of implementation is important as is stability of a > standard and it being understood how to change/upgrade for different > versions. These don't come automatically via open-source. > > Right. Vendors have to decide to contribute engineering hours to a project, similar to the decision to let engineers contribute to SDOs. Open-source software can move the "standards boundary" and achieve multi-vendor support at the north-bound API only. For example, a vendor can provide a proprietary Python plug-in (e.g. OpenStack Neutron) for an open-source platform, without standardizing the south-bound protocols. Regards, > Alia > > Andy
- "why I quit writing internet standards" George, Wes
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" David Meyer
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Alia Atlas
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Andy Bierman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Ted Lemon
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Michael Richardson
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Tim Wicinski
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Andy Bierman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" David Meyer
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dale R. Worley
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Jari Arkko
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Bjoern A. Zeeb
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Carsten Bormann
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Wesley Eddy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Yoav Nir
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Wesley Eddy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Melinda Shore
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Carsten Bormann
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Clausen
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Spencer Dawkins
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Brian E Carpenter
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Cridland
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Nadeau
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Nadeau
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Thomas Nadeau
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Miles Fidelman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Yoav Nir
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" S Moonesamy
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Benoit Claise
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Douglas Otis
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Andy Bierman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Hector Santos
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Crocker
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: DMARC not-WG, was "why I quit writing interne… John Levine
- Re: DMARC not-WG, was "why I quit writing interne… Dave Crocker
- Re: DMARC not-WG, was "why I quit writing interne… Hector Santos
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Crocker
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Dave Crocker
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Scott Kitterman
- Re: "why I quit writing internet standards" Douglas Otis