Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)

Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com> Wed, 10 July 2019 18:09 UTC

Return-Path: <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1776C1205E5 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:09:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.704
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.704 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 81B0bJMO7OY2 for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:09:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pf1-x42a.google.com (mail-pf1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C710120624 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:09:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pf1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id j2so1455596pfe.6 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:09:31 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TBzmvHPYcBMNxdgnUj4CHd8prgnOcUL1GDJZ6dY6wX4=; b=kbvWRrUX/5oIfYjgAW2hphJtSYgu0qI4pf26nhXAM1P8D1vbQEKLtGrjDIVuSaGFNS 2S4dpwaCgvo5XEolKj8lKqusbtYXXgUpPSz5X5nWkd10l13P9A3dS/c3mNI9rmOfESe6 iIHj+lPu8KPtnhE44+7/wF+dS0uekZ65POiVs8bsjuil2vgxT9Slo2EJZNwaXCEPNPmH CL5P1JuRNCXIGREbyJU2LDLKWrD/51CXPvMe7vQPKKumYqBijEOh18C99Ljq41S/LvCB eouAJKXGMoapUtMut3H5e0j6PVCbbLfE5XI6VpSz0wmjBT0r5rVl20gRyP6I3vKuXYKK KWmw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=TBzmvHPYcBMNxdgnUj4CHd8prgnOcUL1GDJZ6dY6wX4=; b=qxpJygo6rhOivghzC17LlNMnAFJbod05UyrLzLQYjZ+ve5mPfyZlY6AuRk/GWhE+4X gaYmHg9fjteMt32DKHhYTB7U4jf25R2sSGfzlg2YqtZ+xigwFO7noW/LkfW5M8rY6kIW biGNwAzBh6AtqHKlHaWrvcAyTgIhL3kuNClzJQ73bPb88QeogXbasiaRLUsNvxeZ0EWM xdWXtDcFeEf3VRn57qeuf03vGAlRMTMYssNE1O/k2F1k50vUxuajzJAtQHE5hdesjbY1 9s2rjAA0ICppKH8yMs5qM60soLi+/558zB2wF7cQNKkR6Nf2aYjJiyOIXiXC+Px78Z0a HHHQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVL3I5HfKV+zKPBcLbr4jMcsaAIbBiA9wZlrX5jNQLUfgJVtXOE jXuPP29JSdiFY/iy2wi6dogN7te5
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxaTnyOtRN07D78ZypcOfuaujmDzfriMHdWHgwdhQndV2tZKTraTrxOzvEz3vkmtp7sIucpVA==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:1d55:: with SMTP id d21mr33100516pgm.418.1562782170658; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:09:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from aspen.local (63-140-64-252.dynamic.lte.acsalaska.net. [63.140.64.252]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y11sm3038789pfb.119.2019.07.10.11.09.29 for <ietf@ietf.org> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:09:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Things that used to be clear (was Re: Evolving Documents (nee "Living Documents") side meeting at IETF105.)
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <20190704140552.GE49950@hanna.meerval.net> <b0943792-1afc-0c94-51b7-f2d393ef39c5@network-heretics.com> <20190705205723.GI55957@shrubbery.net> <20190706185415.GB14026@mit.edu> <CABcZeBPgNr5UqQ0pLwwNu5wh0g9L9wCd6YyYKCUDO37SPru-_Q@mail.gmail.com> <20190708202612.GG60909@shrubbery.net> <9ae14ad1-f8d5-befb-64e4-fff063c88e02@network-heretics.com> <CABcZeBOH9LH8Jrz-A5eu9arqUb+bx8xs_eKWi0pyoh7a3qpOPA@mail.gmail.com> <20190708223350.GO3508@localhost> <af3b25d6-af16-a96a-c149-61d01afb4d01@network-heretics.com> <20190708233438.GP3508@localhost> <ea0b9894-ae9d-55a9-a082-af7aac5be66a@huitema.net> <944332dc-bb2a-0717-8b9f-254b036fe59f@gmx.de> <m2pnmingsi.wl-randy@psg.com> <CAL02cgTBL7w02sWx4kaqGLQe8bGm4jRMyMY9v7yJw57_Sp=PgA@mail.gmail.com> <013801d53729$708c5710$51a50530$@olddog.co.uk> <CAL02cgQPuvVdO6UXkXYLwvD41+2_pBRwj0MXG=qA1oPt73BFmw@mail.gmail.com> <BN8PR15MB2644AAB9613EB10DA5F080EC97F00@BN8PR15MB2644.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
From: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f38bc19-0c55-4a4e-9de5-a882d60002df@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:09:28 -0800
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <BN8PR15MB2644AAB9613EB10DA5F080EC97F00@BN8PR15MB2644.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/5dmI38zYWNcaaaYAmHseyLD3DBU>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 18:09:33 -0000

I'm really not at all convinced that our tooling is, by itself,
presenting any kind of meaningful barrier to participation.  People
learn how to use new tools all the time, and at any rate if we
have any goals here I think it's to find ways to see that people
have the tools they need and want, not to take away options.

That said, I do think that our tooling tends to reinforce the
view that we're ossified, slow, inflexible, and behind the times,
and I suspect that contributes to us being somewhat unattractive
to potential new participants.  I.e. it's cultural rather than
technical.

Melinda

-- 
Melinda Shore
melinda.shore@gmail.com

Software longa, hardware brevis