Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating OAuth, oops
Jeff Craig <jeffcraig@google.com> Fri, 26 February 2021 21:59 UTC
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From: Jeff Craig <jeffcraig@google.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 15:58:58 -0600
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Subject: Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating OAuth, oops
To: Aaron Parecki <aaron@parecki.com>
Cc: David Waite <david@alkaline-solutions.com>, Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com>, Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>, "oauth@ietf.org" <oauth@ietf.org>, IETF-Discussion Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>, Warren Parad <wparad=40rhosys.ch@dmarc.ietf.org>
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On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 3:50 PM Aaron Parecki <aaron@parecki.com> wrote: > > Do you disagree that this gives them control over which things talk to > their servers? > > Yes -- with a public client, I can impersonate a "real" app and it's > basically non-detectable by the AS. For a theoretical example, if I wanted > to use the Instagram API but they restrict which apps can upload photos to > only their own mobile apps, I can find the client ID of their own app, then > do an OAuth flow using their own client ID, and without a client secret it > looks the same as their own client. I'm unlikely to be able to get > arbitrary users to authorize my app because of limits and checks on the > redirect URI, but I can certainly do it myself for my own account. This is > the sort of false sense of security provided by the client registration > step I'm talking about. > The fact that you're unlikely to be able to get arbitrary users authorized as the client is precisely the attack vector that registration is meant to avoid. The fact that any reasonably sophisticated AS is going to use additional signals (Referer headers, etc) to limit the scope of the Public Client to make hijacking harder, which is only possible with registration, is another line of defense. OAuth doesn't need to protect *your* data from you, it needs to protect other people's data from you, and registration offers more opportunities to collect signals that can be used to protect users. None of it's perfect, and I agree that there are problems in the app-identification space that need some additional work, but the registration friction does serve a purpose in a lot of cases. > > I'd love to solve the app identity problem too, but that's only possible > with cooperation from the mobile OSs. > > Aaron > > On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 1:36 PM David Waite <david@alkaline-solutions.com> > wrote: > >> >> >> > On Feb 26, 2021, at 9:32 AM, Aaron Parecki <aaron@parecki.com> wrote: >> >> > The point is that basically nobody uses it because they don't want to >> allow arbitrary client registration at their ASs. That's likely due to a >> combination of pre-registration being the default model in OAuth for so >> long (the Dynamic Client Registration draft was published several years >> after OAuth 2.0), as well as how large corporations have decided to run >> their ASs where they want to have (what feels like) more control over the >> things talking to their servers. >> >> Do you disagree that this gives them control over which things talk to >> their servers? >> >> FWIW my personal mental model here is pretty simple: >> >> With users, there are services you provide anonymously and services you >> provide only to registered/authenticated/trusted parties for various >> reasons. Once you are delegating user access, you still have many of the >> same reasons to provide access to anonymous or >> registered/authenticated/trusted delegates. >> >> Dynamic registration arriving later and requiring additional complexity >> has unfortunately encouraged registration in use cases where anonymous >> clients might have been acceptable, but shifting the timelines or >> complexity balance would not have changed business needs for >> authentication and trust of delegates. Omitting registration would have >> caused businesses to use other protocols that met their needs. >> >> If AS’s are only getting what feels like proper control for their >> business needs, we should attempt to give them the actual control they >> require. >> >> -DW > > _______________________________________________ > OAuth mailing list > OAuth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth >
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- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
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- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
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- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Rifaat Shekh-Yusef
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Bron Gondwana
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Stephen Farrell
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Roman Danyliw
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- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Donald Eastlake
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Fernando Gont
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- Making headway in the IETF [was Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Making headway in the IETF [was Diversity and… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Mark Nottingham
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Rifaat Shekh-Yusef
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Tim Bray
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Jim Fenton
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Building Real Internet Platforms Mark Nottingham
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Larry Masinter
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the… Jim Manico
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Carsten Bormann
- We appear to still be litigating OAuth, oops Bron Gondwana
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
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- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiveness … Keith Moore
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Carsten Bormann
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Neil Madden
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Jim Willeke
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Justin Richer
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Tim Bray
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Christian Huitema
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Michael Richardson
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Phillip Hunt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Michael Thomas
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Michael Thomas
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Christian Hopps
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Bron Gondwana
- Re: coders in IETF (was: Diversity and Inclusiven… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Jen Linkova
- Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the … Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Christian Huitema
- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- RE: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- RE: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Hannes Tschofenig
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- Re: [OAUTH-WG] We appear to still be litigating O… Warren Parad
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
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- Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF Brian E Carpenter
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
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- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
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